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Choose the Membership that's Right for You Options that save you time and fit your budget Basic Unlimited Access to Courses & Content Experts All Access Unlimited Courses, Content Experts, & Therapy Resources Business Great for groups, departments, and organizations Basic 99 /year $ Get Basic Now Billed Once Per Year. Instant Access To Over 100 Courses for ASHA CEUs Unlimited ASHA CE Processing Unlimited Access to Certificates of Completion Private Community with Content Expert and Guest Speaker Access All Access /year Billed Once Per Year. Instant Access To Over 100 Courses for ASHA CEUs Unlimited ASHA CE Processing Unlimited Access to Certificates of Completion Access to all future Live Events & Conferences for the lifetime of your Membership 10% off Graduate Credit Courses Private Community and Speaker Access Members Only Monthly Peer Mentoring Unlimited access to over 50 course handouts Unlimited access to our Resource Library, including: 1 Free Year of Vooks digital books for you and your clients (valued at $49.99) Digital therapy materials and downloads (donated from 5 community partners and growing!) 10 Themed Language Bundles from The Speech Therapy Store (valued at $70) 5 Mini Language Lessons for Middle and High School Students (valued at $25) Discounts and Perks (valued at $25 and growing) 149 GET ALL ACCESS NOW $ Business Up to 15% OFF Get Business Now Discounts of up to 15% when you purchase 5 or more Memberships. A great option for departments, schools, or groups. 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Call for papers is open. Call for Papers is OPen! Use the information below to prepare your submission. We are thrilled you are interested in joining us on SLP Nerdcast! We hope you find all the answers to your questions on this page. If you still have a question email us anytime. HOW DO I SUBMIT MY CALL FOR PAPERS? Good question! It’s similar to what you may have found at other conferences. Use this Call for Papers Planning Worksheet to organize your submission. You will need to prepare the following: The name and email address of a primary author / presenter as a point of contact The names and email addresses of any additional authors A topic area and proposed title (this may be subject to change) An abstract / brief blog post that summarizes the content of your presentation that is less than 1500 characters 3 learning objectives that are measurable and well defined At least 3 relevant references (you will be asked to submit a final list of references and 2-3 page outline 2 weeks prior to recording). A bio for all authors / presenters (you have the option to email us a headshot to use for marketing materials at info@slpnerdcast.com ) Once you have filled in the Call for Papers Planning Worksheet you can use the button below to submit electronically. Please note: the electronic submission does not save as you enter information unless you are signed into a google account. We recommend filling in the worksheet and copying and pasting your information into the electronic submission form. SUBMIT YOUR PROPOSAL Are all presentations accepted? Presentations are reviewed by Kate and Amy in conjunction with the Advisory Board. Presentations will be accepted based on a rubric weighing factors related to the following questions: Does the presentation contain 3 clear learning objectives Does the presentation integrate principles of evidence-based practice with emphasis on clinical application and / or relevance? Does the presentation provide opportunities for listeners to extend their self-directed learning? Does the presentation align with previously identified learning needs of our audience. I submitted my presentation. What comes next? We will contact you by email no later than 4-6 weeks of the closing date. If my / our presentation is accepted what can I / we expect? If your presentation is accepted the following will happen: We will notify you via email that your presentation was accepted no later than 4-6 weeks of the closing date. We will send you a link where you can choose a recording date. Generally speaking recording time will be roughly one and a half hours. Two weeks prior to recording we ask you to submit a 2-3 page outline that includes a complete reference list. While you can make minor changes to this outline we ask that it be as close to a final draft as possible. You will also be asked to confirm that your financial and non-financial disclosures have not changed. Additional instructions and details will be sent once your presentation is accepted. We record our episodes over Zoom. When recording we ask that you: Have earbuds or a headset with microphone Have a stable / strong WiFi connection Go somewhere quiet Turn off anything that might make a sound (phone, email alerts, etc.) Consider having a timer present. Our episodes are at least 50 minutes long and no longer than 1 hour and 5 minutes. We rely on you to keep time during your presentation and will begin wrapping up at roughly the 1 hour mark. Be prepared to make mistakes. We make them all the time - mistakes are welcome. We can discuss final editing with you prior to publication. Have more questions? Email us anytime! I can’t submit this time around. When will call for papers open again? We open our Call for Papers once a year in January. FAQ CALL FOR PAPERS. “Call for Podpers” as we call it. Get it? See what we did there?

This transcript is made available as a course accommodation for and is supplementary to this episode / course. This transcript is not intended to be used in place of the podcast episode with the exception of course accommodation. Please note: This transcript was created by robots. We do our best to proof read but there is always a chance we miss something. Find a typo? Email us anytime . [00:00:00]   Intro Kate Grandbois:  Welcome to SLP nerd cast your favorite professional resource for evidence based practice in speech, language pathology. I'm Kate grant wa and I'm Amy  Amy Wonkka:  Wonka. We are both speech, language pathologists working in the field and co-founders of SLP nerd cast. Each  Kate Grandbois:  episode of this podcast is a course offered for ashes EU. Our podcast audio courses are here to help you level up your knowledge and earn those professional development hours that you need. This course. Plus the corresponding short post test is equal to one certificate of attendance to earn CEUs today and take the post test. After this session, follow the link provided in the show notes or head to SLP ncast.com . Amy Wonkka:  Before we get started one quick, disclaimer, our courses are not meant to replace clinical. We do not endorse products, procedures, or other services mentioned by our guests, unless otherwise  Kate Grandbois:  specified. We hope you enjoy  Announcer:  the course. Are you an SLP related [00:01:00]  professional? The SLP nerd cast unlimited subscription gives members access to over 100 courses, offered for ashes, EU, and certificates of attendance. With SLP nerd cast membership, you can earn unlimited EU all year at any time. SLP nerd cast courses are unique evidence based with a focus on information that is useful. When you join SLP nerd cast as a member, you'll have access to the best online platform for continuing education and speech and language pathology. Join as a member today and save 10% using code nerd caster 10. A link for membership is in the show notes Sponsor 1 Announcer:  This episode is brought to you in part by listeners like you and by our corporate sponsor, Ventris Learning. Ventris Learning's culturally and linguistically responsive teaching resources help speech language pathologists, reading specialists, and teachers more effectively meet the assessment and instructional needs of [00:02:00]  all students, including those who tend to become underserved in language and or literacy. To learn more, visit www.ventrislearning.com .  Episode Kate Grandbois:  Hello, and welcome to SLP Nerdcast. We are so excited For today's episode. We are here to talk about a topic that is very near and dear to our hearts. Collaboration is something we talk about on the podcast all the time. And today we have the pleasure of welcoming two expert guests. Welcome, Becca Sylvia and Christy Stearns. Kristi Stearns:  Hi. Thank you for having us. We're thrilled to be here.  Becca Sylvia:  Hello. We are.  Amy Wonkka:  Now, Becca and Christy, we're excited to have you with us here today, and you're here to discuss, like Kate said, how to effectively collaborate with other professionals as a speech language pathologist. But before we get started, can you please tell us just a little bit about yourselves? Kristi Stearns:  Sure. So this is Christy speaking. Um, I am a speech language [00:03:00]  pathologist. Becca and I, um, well now I'm bringing Becca in, but Becca and I met, um, I think that's important to the story, Becca and I met as, uh, First year grad students in Massachusetts, and that's how we became friends and also co founders. Um, but as for me, I'm originally from Florida, um, went up to Massachusetts for grad school. I did some work up there, um, worked at schools for, um, autistic children and individuals with developmental disabilities. Um, did a high AEC concentration. I really enjoyed doing that and also working with, um, that upper school age. So like 14 to 21. Um, and currently I'm back in Florida and, um, Yeah, I have a little three year old and, um, back where my husband and I are from. So it's been, it's been very enjoyable and it's been really nice to be able to maintain such a nice friendship and collaboration [00:04:00]  with Becca once we started communication community. So happy to be here.  Becca Sylvia:  Yes, so I am Becca. I was born and raised in Massachusetts. As Christine mentioned, we met in grad school. After grad school, I moved out to Colorado and started my career in speech language pathology, doing a lot of AAC, high tech AAC. And then moved over and did some stuff in the schools and, um, Christie and I started communication community, our blog originally with the main focus on a C, but then kind of a little bit of everything. And so it's been awesome working together in this kind of professional capacity for a number of years while also being really good friends too. Just great.  Kristi Stearns:  I'm sure the two of you can relate in a way, you know, working with a friend and also, [00:05:00]  um, you know, someone who holds you accountable, at least for me. Yes,  Kate Grandbois:  definitely. There is nothing better than having a partner in crime, a partner in nerds. A nerdy kindred spirit. It's good. Yes. Yes, to keep moving, you know, moving things forward and having another brain in the room. It's just so great. And we're So glad that you have agreed to share your, your hive mind, your, your knowledge, your shared knowledge with us today as it relates to collaboration. Um, I do need to read our learning objectives and disclosures before we get started, so I will do that as quickly as I can. Learning objective number one, list the six competencies for interprofessional collaboration. Learning objective number two, describe generational communication styles. And learning objective number three, describe collaboration through personality awareness. Disclosures. Becca's Financial Disclosures. Becca is a co-owner of Communication Community, LLC, and an employee of a health tech [00:06:00]  company, Becca's Non-Financial Disclosures. Becca is a member of ASHA and Co-managers, the Communication Community blog, the Circle, community and Social Media Accounts. Christie's financial disclosures. Christie is a co owner of communication community LLC. Christie's non financial disclosures. Christie is a member of ASHA and co manages the communication community blog, the circle community and social media accounts. Kate, that's me. My financial disclosures, I am the owner and founder of Grand Bois Therapy and Consulting LLC and co founder of SLP Nerdcast. My non financial disclosures, I'm a member of ASHA SIG 12 and serve on the AAC Advisory Group for Massachusetts Advocates for Children. I'm also a member of the Berkshire Association for Behavior Analysis and Therapy.  Amy Wonkka:  Amy, that's me. Uh, my financial disclosures are that I'm an employee of a public school system and co founder of SLP Nerdcast. And my non financial disclosures are that I'm a member of ASHA Special Interest Group 12, which is AAC. Uh, and I [00:07:00]  participate in the AAC Advisory Group for Massachusetts Advocates for Children. All right. Learning objectives done. Disclosure done. Um, Becca and Christy, why don't you start us off by telling us just a little bit about why you're here? interprofessional collaboration is important for SLPs? Why is this something that we should care about?  Becca Sylvia:  Yeah, I mean, I would say there's a lot of reasons why you should care about it. But I would say the number one is like collaborating effectively can lead to better outcomes for clients. So that's kind of what we're here for. We want our clients to have good outcomes. And there's lots of things that go into having good outcomes. And one of those things is that collaboration with clients. the clients, their families, but also like the team and other professionals. And so, um, we believe that by understanding different communication styles, collaboration methods, different things like that, can improve collaboration and then [00:08:00]  therefore outcomes across disciplines. Kristi Stearns:  And I think that's reflected in some of the studies that we'll reference today as well. You know, the objectives that Kate outlined at the beginning of the podcast. You know, we will talk about competencies for interprofessional collaboration, generational communication styles, and collaboration through personality awareness. We pulled from different research that, um, hit. Several different collaboration areas. Um, so yeah, the competencies generation, then also, you know, those personality assessments and we thought it was an interesting area to explore because for such a. deeply personal field where we have, we're on so many different teams. I don't know a lot of other professions where we're operating in so many different groups. [00:09:00]  Even though you have these, uh, other professionals that you work with day in and day out, and whether it's a healthcare setting, school setting, you also, there's that component of adding, you know, a whole other client and their caregivers and families. And so, operating in a very healthy, constructive team environment, in a collaborative environment, is so, so important, I think, for our, for our clients. Um, professions specifically. Becca Sylvia:  All right. So we can start by talking about the six competencies for interprofessional collaboration. Um, this was, um, there is an article by Bainbridge et al that discusses essential competencies required for, uh, effective interprofessional collaboration in healthcare settings. So, um, there was a framework developed by the Canadian Interprofessional Health Collaborative, also known as the CIHC, that basically their [00:10:00]  goal was like, we want to enhance teamwork among healthcare professionals so that care is efficient, coordinated well, and patient centered. So all those things that were like, these are all. Great things, you know, um, and so frameworks can be helpful sometimes because it could really kind of lay out very specifically like here are some kind of areas to focus on, um, and, you know, they're kind of can be refined over time. But I think it's we thought it was really helpful. And we really liked how they kind of laid it out. Um, and so we can talk about each of those six ones. So, Chris, if you want to start with the first few Okay.  Kristi Stearns:  Yeah. Um, so as part of, um, as part of these competencies, one of the main competencies, um, is role clarification. So, um, you know, with your team, what is each person on the team going to do to support the client's overall goals? So what are. Essentially, what out are your, [00:11:00]  um, roles and responsibilities on this team? Um, so it's incredibly important that while you understand your role and what you will bring to the team, um, and those, and those responsibilities clearly, clearly outlined, you're also aware of the roles of others, kind of like the, Okay, once you know your role, you know what lane you're staying in and you know if maybe you're getting too close to someone else's lane. Um, so that gives you the ability to recognize boundaries and, um, the scope of practice for each professional. And I think when those are outlined, um, we can perform our best and, uh, our strongest for our clients.  Kate Grandbois:  I just want to make a quick comment based on something you shared earlier about how unique our field is because we're touching so many different aspects of student care, client care, patient care, whatever word you're using. We also have such a shared scope of competence. We share our [00:12:00]  scope with, uh, special educators. We share some scope with literacy specialists, with behavior analysts, like it or not. Um, if you're working in a hospital setting, you might share, you know, some aspects you might be having. disagreements with your ENT over, over something that you're seeing or whether or not to recommend a bedside or I don't know, I'm not, I'm at SLP. So I don't really know what I'm saying, but my point is, you know, we share our scope with so many other professionals that understanding your role, I have to assume is a critical piece of being able to collaborate effectively without getting grouchy because sometimes you feel grouchy.  Kristi Stearns:  You're, I mean, yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think that, um, also considering that each setting may be doing something different. Um, and those roles may look a little bit different within each setting. Of course, we have our, you know, our specific clinical roles and responsibilities that we can't waver from [00:13:00]  too much. But, you know, you think about some of that. Um, I know you were mentioning the feeding and swallowing piece. You know, there is. There's a lot of overlap in health care settings in that, um, in that space. So making sure that whatever setting you're in, that those roles, um, are Very explicitly clarified and that can that's also a prevention measure for some of the that conflict because maybe in another setting you were way more hands on with that particular role that maybe the O. T. is taking more of a lead on and that's more of the general team expectation. Um, so making sure that that is clearly outlined is what's going to be. Healthy for collaboration with the team and then also, um, that it obviously reflects on the client as well.  Amy Wonkka:  I'd imagine too that when you're clarifying your role, that in and of itself could be promoting collaboration because hopefully [00:14:00]  you're having a conversation with these other providers and talking about the overlap and talking about what's going to happen. So just by the nature of that conversation, you're sort of setting the stage for some collaboration there.  Kristi Stearns:  Exactly. Um, and then that kind of leans into, um, another competency, which is team functioning. And that's essentially looking at how will the team function together to support one another. So we definitely need that role clarification to be able to understand how the team as a whole is going to operate. Um, So this is very important for working effectively within those all of those different team environments for all of those different clients and families. Um, and when you have those roles in place and when you understand the different team dynamics that fosters more of a sense of mutual respect and promotes, um, that positive [00:15:00]  collaborative atmosphere.  So in essence, um, having the role clarification contributes to team functioning and that continuous collaboration that it's important to check in, um, on a continual basis versus just establishing those roles at the beginning of the school year, so to speak. It's important that we continue to check in, um, to ensure that continuation and the team, the maintenance of the team functioning.  Becca Sylvia:  I also think, too, if you have good role clarifications, it can be helpful on a team if, say, someone is out, then you can know, okay, well, this person normally is the one who makes sure that this student's AAC device is out and charged in the morning, but I know that they're absent today, so someone else can kind of fill that team member's shoes for this instance, and so that's a way to kind of, you know, support the team, support each other when [00:16:00]  someone Can't fulfill their role for a day for a specific reason. Kristi Stearns:  Um, and another area of, um, the six competencies for interprofessional collaboration is that interprofessional communication. So we've covered the role clarification. We've covered, you know, roughly how the team is going to function and check in with one another. Or I guess more of the frequency, right? We want it to be continuous, so that interprofessional communication, that's what that collaboration is going to look like in essence. How will the team collaboration be maintained? So, um, whether that be You You have a meeting at the beginning of the year and outline what that might look like for you and your team. Do you want to meet on a weekly basis? Do you want to meet in person? Do you want to have, um, email, slack, [00:17:00]  messenger, whatever? You're using check ins, um, but making sure that that interprofessional communication, everyone is on the same page with as well. So making sure that, um, this communication is clear, respectful, um, you know, there are timely exchanges of information, um, because this is, you know, timing is everything in our profession in a lot of ways. Um, I think I was listening to One of your podcasts earlier this week, and, um, I know that in different states, certain evaluations have, uh, uh, one time frame, and then in other states, it may be a longer or shorter time frame, so making sure that those time markers are also there because, you know, say you're submitting information for an IEP, for example, um, okay, well, if you're submitting that information on the last day, But you have five other members of the team who also need to look at that documentation and make their, um, [00:18:00]  edits or revisions or what have you. Um, that's incredibly important.  Kate Grandbois:  I want to make one comment about interprofessional communication. And wanting to make sure that one of the things that I found to be most successful is bringing humanity into those conversations and into that communication. So the colleague that you're communicating with is a human first and a professional second. Um, I've had, I have found that a lot of friction in interprofessional communication can stem from not having that human connection, so not understanding that someone is having a really bad day, or maybe didn't sleep, or is having a crisis at home, um, or even approaching communication with this underlying sense that your objectives are more important, or your objectives are more urgent, and you, you might end Talking about this later. So I don't want to, I don't want to put the carpet for the horse, but I just think I, I so value you bringing up the competency of [00:19:00]  inter interprofessional communication because it isn't just about timeliness of, uh, your workplace or, or, you know, the word, whether or not you use an exclamation point in your email. I mean, there are so many layers to making sure that that goes well. And I think so much of that is rooted in, in being a person, just being a human being, connecting with a human being.  Becca Sylvia:  Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, there's so many times where, like, you might get an email that's like, you're like, are they being a little stucky? Am I reading this the wrong way? And as much as you want to say, like, it's fine, I'm just going to, you know, forget about it. It can impact you when you're going into your next session, you're thinking about it. And so, and that. can impact, you know, outcomes in general. So yeah, having that like frame of mind of like, let's have strong communication because that does touch everything, whether it be directly or indirectly. Kristi Stearns:  Yeah. And approaching. Yeah. [00:20:00]  Like Kate was saying, um, each person as another human, you know, you're not just this bot on the other side of your email screen, you know, they entered this profession to what I would like to think it You know, to, um, you know, care for clients and make sure that they receive the best outcomes and care. Um, and a lot of this too, I know that these six competencies are a little bit more, um, uh, I don't want to say the drier area, but these are a little bit more clean cut guidelines, so to speak. And they're very important, but I think the big picture too, with all of this discussion about collaboration is that, um, All of these objectives that we're going to discuss require perspective taking. And it seems so, um, it seems so basic, but it's not, you know, it's important that we have that awareness and we can perspective take [00:21:00]  not only, you know, have that knowledge for teaching our clients in some respects, but we need to practice that and model that as clinicians and, um, professionals and when we're working with others. So,  Amy Wonkka:  well, and I have to imagine that perspective taking also. Slides into the next component when you're thinking about your actual clients and their caregivers Um, I don't know if you wanted to talk to us just a little bit about what are some of the components there That come into play when we're thinking about this interprofessional practice. Becca Sylvia:  Yeah, I mean A big one that I know people hear about, we talk about is that patient or client or family community centered care. So at the end of the day, like the, the needs and the preferences of the client, like that is what's most important. And so understanding their perspectives and their values. In this decision making process is [00:22:00]  really important. Um, and that may mean that like roles may shift a little depending on a client themselves because of their situation because of their preferences. Um, different, you know, different scenarios and so understanding what like their goals are cultural considerations their interests. Um, you know, if say for example. They are, they primarily speak Spanish at home and there's one member of the team that doesn't do a lot of the daily communication, but they speak Spanish and they can say, you know, I can take on this role for this family because it's important to that. They have we have daily communication with them because we know that's important for this family and I can. Do it, and I can speak to them in Spanish or communicate with them in Spanish versus another family that might say, I do not need daily updates unless it's an emergency. You know, like, I prefer weekly updates and someone else can give me those weekly updates. [00:23:00]  That is when those understanding of working together as a team of doing one person's doing one of the other. But at the end of the day, it's so that the clients are centered. Um, and so another competency, and I think this is something that is, can be difficult, but I think it is important to, to kind of have an idea about, is that interprofessional conflict resolution. Because as much as we would love to not have conflicts, conflicts, Are going to come up. And again, this might be complex within the team itself, or it could be there could be a conflict with a client because something is going on that they there's a conflict that needs to be resolved. So being able to address conflicts rather than trying to kind of sweep the munch of the rug, I think is important. Um, and then kind of also being able to understand of [00:24:00]  recognizing sources of conflicts to say like, does this happen because the communicate, we're not meeting regularly enough? Is this, is conflict happening because the roles aren't clarified well enough and there's some overlap or there's an important Job or test needs to be done and no one's assigned to this role. So it's just keeps getting missed. Um, kind of trying to figure out, like, why is this conflict happening and what can we do to address it and try to mitigate it so that it we do not deal with it again, or it's, you know, lesser, I think, can be, um, is helpful. Um, and I think kind of what you had mentioned earlier to key about like, these are humans. So like, let's try to stay positive. We are all humans. Let's be want to stay positive. We want to offer constructive feedback. We don't need to, you know, do the blame game pointing fingers all the time. Um, because that doesn't really, you know, that can hurt rapport, it can hurt [00:25:00]  collaboration. And so Um, being able to kind of find ways through conflict resolution is an important piece of being able to collaborate effectively for sure. Kate Grandbois:  What you all are saying about This these components of humanity is making me think of a little story I heard once called the baby in the backseat. Have you heard this story? I swear. I'll make it very short. No, I'm so intrigued. But essentially, Amy, have you heard the story? Have I said this to you before?  Amy Wonkka:  Yes.  Kate Grandbois:  Yeah. Okay. So hopefully our listeners and you all will get something out of this and it's not totally off topic, but essentially the story goes where imagine you're in your car, you're driving to work, you are late, you've got coffee that you've spilled in your lap and you, you, uh, you end up hitting every red light on the way to work and you're sitting at a red light and the light turns green and the car in front of you doesn't go and you're like, what is going on? And you get so frustrated and [00:26:00]  you start laying on your horn and you're like, I am so late. The light cycles to green, the light cycles to yellow, and then to red again, and you're like, I can't believe this, you become increasingly more enraged. The light cycles to green again, the car still doesn't go, you can see the person in front of you fiddling around with something in their bag or something in the back seat. And you decide that you've had enough, and you're so angry, so you get out of the car, and you storm right up to the front door, or the window, to yell at the person, why aren't you moving? And you see that the woman is stuck and can't get her seatbelt open, her seatbelt off, and her baby is choking in the backseat, and there is an emergency. And all of a sudden, in that moment, Your anger goes dissolves immediately and you are, Oh my gosh, this is a person who needs my help and you go right in to help the baby in the backseat. So the point of this little story is you never know when someone has a baby in the backseat. And I, I carry this with me as a little story of if someone is being grouchy at you, if there is a conflict, if someone is being snarky, You never [00:27:00]  know what someone else is dealing with in their personal life and trying to remember that there could be a baby in the backseat. There could be something going on instead of taking it immediately personally and retaliating or talking to your supervisor or. Sending a snarky email back that doesn't have any friendly exclamation points. You know, there are so many ways that we can handle ourselves in conflict, holding space for what someone else might be experiencing that we just don't have visibility to. And that's my story. I won't take up any more airspace, but hopefully that was helpful. No,  Becca Sylvia:  I think that's good. And it made me think of a time when I had a supervisor who said it in a different way, but basically was like, You're there are going to be times where you can't give a hundred percent. So, or like your team members can't give a hundred percent. And I think of it in the sense of number one, okay. Recognizing yeah, that my coworkers or other people I work with, they, because of what's going on in their personal life, they have a baby in the backseat. They can't deal with it. I guess for me, and we'll go into, I guess, like personality [00:28:00]  styles a little bit later. It gives me permission to also to say, okay, sometimes I have a baby in the backseat and it's okay if I can't. Give my a hundred percent because we are humans and like, that's okay too. Kristi Stearns:  Yeah. The, the lack of, uh, you know, I'm putting quotes around this, but the lack of effort, so to speak, is not coming from a place, you know, I don't want this client to succeed, or I want our team meeting to start 10 minutes later. Um, you know, when we can stop and pause and think about, um, like the two of you were saying, you know, think about, okay. I don't think that this is an attack on me. I think maybe, maybe they had a stomach ache. Maybe they needed to take a little bit more time before the meeting and that's why they were late. Um, I've had stomach aches before. I'm sure other people have too. You know, I, I think it's important to stop and actually consider like, how involved are you personally in this matter, for sure. Becca Sylvia:  And [00:29:00]  that leads well into the final competency, which is collaborative leadership. So the idea that leadership roles can be shared within a team, it's not up to one person to be the leader. And so that way, if that one person is, you know, Can't give full effort for whatever reason or has a bigger role to fill one day, other people can kind of take the lead. So, you know, an example of this is if you do have a standing, you know, weekly meeting or monthly meeting where you talk about the clients, the plans, You know, action steps, all of that. Different people on the team can kind of be the person who leads that meeting and, you know, organizes it together or kind of summarizes the meeting minutes at the end and leads out to say, you know, after the meeting, you know, it's my job today to say, okay, [00:30:00]  Christy's going to do this, and Amy's going to do this, and then the next month comes around, and Christy's that person who does it. So kind of understanding that leadership roles can kind of change, and other people, people can take different leadership roles or different times, I think is also helpful to know that like, yeah, we're not stuck in like a, we made this decision once, and now it's going to stay like that. Until the end of the year or the end of whatever. All right, so those were the six competencies, the kind of that overall framework. So the next area we're going to talk about is the generational communication styles. And so it's important to understand that generational differences can affect communication. With the caveat caveat that like we're talking about generational trends, not like prescriptions of saying this is what it's Gen all Gen Xers are like this or all boomers are like this because that's not true. And we know that, but there are [00:31:00]  trends and these trends come from, you know, surveys reports, um, based on things like significant global events, cultural, cultural shifts, development of technology. You know, we're saying that a lot of. You know, the Gen Z population is really into technology versus maybe boomers aren't well, guess what? Like the technology wasn't around when boomers were growing up. So it's not that it's not that they're choosing it's that they just, it's kind of based on cultural and life. Um, but that being said there, you know, certain trends and we think just kind of having that awareness of that. There are some generational trends can be helpful. So again, seeing that humanity. And the people you're working with, um, is helpful and kind of understanding why they may think things a certain way or might approach things a certain way or have different opinions may be impacted. By the generation that they grew up in. Um, [00:32:00]  so, you know, we'll talk about kind of the overarching trends of the generations that we would see in the workplace today and kind of their, you know, rough age. We also know that like, if you're kind of right on the cuffs, you might feel like, Oh, I really belong to this generation or whatever other generation, but more or less. Um, the first two we'll talk about are baby baby boomers, which are around age 60 to 78. Um, and for communication styles, they tend to favor the face-to-face communication. And then like more, um, you know, like formal. respectful interactions, more of that like traditional communication style. Um, the next generation, so generation X or Gen X, roughly ages 44 to 59, um, less of that like face to face traditional communication and tend to perform more of the concise [00:33:00]  communication, efficient communication, let's kind of like get the job done. Kristi Stearns:  Um, yeah. That's about right. What would you say,  Amy Wonkka:  Amy? That resonates for me as a, as a, as a Gen Xer.  Kristi Stearns:  Yeah. Well, and it's, it is interesting because the information that we're reviewing and these communication styles that we're discussing across, you know, boomers, Generation X, Millennials and Gen Z, this is polled, what was the survey? It was like over 400, 000, um, individuals. So like, these are self reports of, you know, um, You know, this is my age range. You know, they're circling their age range and this is their preferred communication styles. And again, I think for me, um, you know, I would fall personally into the millennial range, but I see different, um, communication trends from other, um, generations that I, that I also, um, would subscribe to. So again, these are, these are more of just trends, but by, [00:34:00]  um. Understanding that these different preferences do in fact exist, it gives us a little bit more of that exposure and awareness that, okay, if I'm someone who only wants to chitchat via email or via workplace digital messaging, and somebody else really wants to meet with me once a week in person, I'm not taking that as, wow, This person has no respect for my time. You know, I know that this is more efficient, but, you know, why do they want me to meet in person, you know? And there's so many more layers than that. Um, and that's not really true to me because I, I love meeting in person. So, um, yeah, I actually do. Becca and I differ in that respect and somewhat. Becca can do more on, um, uh, my, I need more in person accountability and Becca likes that. Corresponding via email and in messages. But anyways, um, [00:35:00]  so yeah, Becca covered Baby Boomers and Generation X. Um, so Millennials, that's, uh, another generation that is roughly between, uh, the ages of 28 to 43. So this is the generation that's a little bit more comfortable with digital communication. Again, a lot of that has to do with cultural shifts in the development of technology. Um, You know, we tend to, we Millennials tend to value feedback, um, and collaborative approaches. Um, so this might look like, uh, higher energy collaborative environments that appreciate real time feedback, often communicated through digital platforms. So, um, I can say for myself, I really, like, I think back to grad school, and I loved the immediate feedback. I walk out of a session, and my supervisor is holding up a list of things for me to improve, like, I [00:36:00]  really enjoyed that, um, while I know that there are other individuals who want to wait till the end of their week so they can get all of the rest of their Um, documentation done without distractions, and that's not something that they need to consider. Um, so roughly that's, you know, Millennials, and then our last generation that we explore is Generation Z, Gen Z, which is, um, 27, roughly 27, um, years of age and younger. So this is more of that, um, Technology has, from a cultural perspective, has really evolved, um, for them as compared to, you know, Millennials, Gen X, and Baby Boomers. So, Gen Zs are described as highly digital, um, they're a little bit more accustomed and have the expectation of multitasking, um, Generations, you know, Gen Z might expect a little bit more of a fast digital communication is and is adept at navigating multiple [00:37:00]  communication channels simultaneously. Um, I, I. You know, I'm making a generalized statement, but, um, I know several different business professionals that they have someone who is, falls into the Gen Z generation, um, managing their social media profiles. Um, you know, I think of some of my younger cousins who are in their early 20s and they also are starting a business ventures with the interest of doing that. Um, whereas I don't. personally have that type of capacity. Um, but I love to see it, you know, and it just goes to show that within each of these, you know, uh, rough generational ranges, there is so much that each can bring to the table in different ways and to kind of highlight those strengths more than see them as differences. But it is important to be aware [00:38:00]  of. Maybe some of those preferences, whatever it may be, whether it's generalization, general consistent with the generation or not. Um, you know, it can help you with, uh, that teamwork and collaboration. And maybe, you know, maybe you're taking a, uh, approach where, um, we have one, uh, colleague who really prefers those in person meetings. We have another colleague who, um, You know, wants to do a little bit more messaging and emailing. Okay, maybe we work with a hybrid approach. Maybe we meet in person once a month and then we have those digital weekly updates at the end of each week. So again, just meeting. Your team where they're at and, um, having that mutual understanding,  Kate Grandbois:  I think mutual understanding there is key because I can already hear the voice like, Oh, boomer or Oh, God, what a gen gen Z, you know, rolling there, [00:39:00]  rolling your eyes or making the assumption that the way that someone else prefers to communicate is in a front somehow to you or disrespectful. And I think the point here is understanding. that other people have preferences and it's your job as a respectful colleague to acknowledge those preferences, maybe not accommodate those preferences all the time, but not take it personally and sort of look at it through a lens that can diffuse any of any of that conflict. Becca Sylvia:  Yeah, I know, you know, Kristi and I had talked about it a little bit, especially in, I would say, our field, whether you're in a school on a special education team or you're in like a SNF and you can have a rehab team, you may have, you know, co workers who are, you know, on the same level as you in terms of like, same degree, same credentials, same like general responsibilities, and you could have, you know, You can have an OT who has been practicing for over 30 years, and you can have a speech [00:40:00]  therapist who just finished their CF and are, you know, one year out of practice, and they're kind of, you have to, in collaborating together, in a sense, and I know, um, so my mom is, has been a school based OT for over 30 years. When she first started, like, there wasn't email. So, you know, obviously, things have evolved. She uses email all the time, but that's not her first thing. method of communication necessarily. Maybe it is. Sorry, mom. But you know, in the terms of versus someone of her, you know, newer OT or a new speech therapist who is Gen Z and is, you know, just finished, just graduated school and that's all they know. And so the sense of like this, we have to kind of collaborate and work together and know that. There are that someone what someone might prefer or go to is based on their experience rather than trying to be like, this is the best way that's just like, this is what I'm doing, what I'm [00:41:00]  more comfortable with. Amy Wonkka:  Well, and I'd imagine it really, really connects to the interprofessional communication component that you guys were talking about. You know, I think when you're building, uh, When you're identifying the roles and you're, you're identifying whose, whose scope is what, um, and you're figuring out, okay, what is the best method of communication? I think maybe having some explicit conversations just like you did about the roles would be helpful in terms of what is your preference for communication style? Um, because all of these are areas where, you know, I think, I think about some of the collaboration that I've done in, in my role in schools and in outpatient settings. And, um, Do you sort of just go into the mode? Okay, this is how we do this. This is how we do this. And I've never even paused to gather information about how the other people I'm collaborating with would actually prefer to meet or receive information or communicate. So it's also very connected to that for me and hearing you guys talk about it. Becca Sylvia:  Absolutely.  Kristi Stearns:  And I think just [00:42:00]  as a closing consideration, um, again, your personal preference or maybe a colleague's personal preference may not be consistent with their quote unquote generation, but so it's important to not generalize or stereotype entire generations. Um, but, you know, this data that we've shared is from a student. very big survey. So these preferences do exist. Um, and that I think is the most important to recognize that people will just have different preferences. And, um, just, Use respectful language, you know, use neutral, respectful language when describing generational traits. Um, you know, rather than saying older generations are out of touch with technology, you know, you can say different generations may have varying levels of comfort with technology. You know, I think of my parents, my dad has always been ahead of the curve. You know, he would fall into that boomer range, but he is incredibly, incredibly, incredibly tech savvy. And what, [00:43:00]  whereas my mom. Who falls into that range. She needs support with opening up her Outlook and email and that sort of thing. So, um, again, there's You can't just fully full on stereotype and focusing on those strengths and emphasizing the different strengths that each, um, colleague or, you know, um, each generation, so to speak, um, contributes, um, is very important than perceiving things as differences or weekend weaknesses and that, um, you know, and this also applies. We talk about, um, You know, successful collaboration. But again, this also goes back to when we're collaborating with clients and their families. We're working with, um, a very wide age range, um, of clients and family members. So, um, make sure to also include if this is something you're exploring in your workplace, um, how generational diversity can enhance that collaboration and creativity rather than just [00:44:00]  you know, framing them as differences or feeling like you have obstacles when you're working with certain clients and families. Um, so all starts with communication. Just have, have conversations about it. Yeah. Um, and I think we're ready to talk about, um, the ocean framework.  Kate Grandbois:  Yeah. I'm really curious to hear these about these components of personality awareness.  Kristi Stearns:  Yes. So I think, you know, we, we went back and forth how we wanted to structure these different objectives and I think that the personality awareness using the big five ocean framework, which is what we're going to talk about ties in nicely at the end because you can look back at some of those six competencies for inter professional collaboration and some of these generational differences. And you can. A lot of that will interweave with some of these, um, big, some of this big [00:45:00]  five framework, um, and we'll talk about what that is, and we're digging a little bit more into the, the personality of, um, different people, so that's, that's fun. Out of curiosity, Have any of you taken a personality test before you either applied to a job or during like a workplace, um, like seminar or workshop? Kate Grandbois:  I have. I'm, I'm like the rare psycho killer one. Every, every time. No, I don't  Kristi Stearns:  think  Kate Grandbois:  that one's in here, but. It's not a psycho killer one, but I, I, I can't remember the acronyms, but I'm the, I'm the, The really rare personality type that makes people look at me weird. Like  Becca Sylvia:  when I took my Harry Potter sorting and I was a Slytherin. Yeah. That I don't know how, um, valid that test that I took was, [00:46:00]  so, yeah, I think it's more valid than my, than my personality test.  Amy Wonkka:  Has the Harry Potter sorting test been empirically validated this year?  Kristi Stearns:  Wow, we submitted the wrong paper, everybody.  Kate Grandbois:  Yes.  Kristi Stearns:  Wouldn't that be fun if we were all indifferent? A different house. That would be it. That would be fun. I feel like I  Kate Grandbois:  can feel like a live podcast recording coming on speech pathology and the Harry Potter sorting tat sorting hat research. There's going to be some good research coming out of that. But anyway, I didn't mean to derail you. I have I have taken one of those tests. Kristi Stearns:  Well, maybe some of the questions or some of the findings. Let us know if any of that is consistent with some of these areas that we're describing. I know that there are, there are a lot of different workplace personality assessments. I know like Myers Briggs is a really common one, and I know there's like 16 or something. Um, but the big five ocean framework, which we are going to talk about, [00:47:00]  um, There are five personality traits. And so, um, let's talk about how some of these personality traits can further enhance collaboration. So, uh, the big five personality traits, uh, also known as OCEAN. Um, that's an acronym for each of the individual personality traits. Um, it's often used by psychologists and offer a comprehensive framework to understand individual differences. Um, again, understanding and awareness is, um, There's a theme here. Um, I believe, uh, this framework has been around since about like the 60s or 70s, but in 1981, psychologist Lewis Goldberg coined the term, um, coined ocean the big five and has been further refined and accepted over the years. So, um, the, the big five, the BFI consists of a series of statements that respondents rate on a scale, typically from strongly disagree to strongly [00:48:00]  agree. Um, I know that we've all taken, uh, little assessments or filled out questionnaires like that. Um, so this, the BFI helps to identify where an individual falls on each of the five dimensions. And, um, this can provide insights into their personality characteristics, which can be useful for personal development, career planning, and improving interpersonal relationships. Um, So an example question might be, um, uh, or an example statement would be, I see myself as someone who is dependable and self disciplined. And then you would rate yourself on a scale, um, from strongly disagree to strongly agree. Um, so the first The O in the ocean traits, um, is openness. And so that is the personality that is, uh, uh, willing to try new ideas and practices. Um, so this [00:49:00]  personality type might encourage creative problem solving and, um, Is very open to the ideas and perspectives of others. I think in our field, we all, um, it's important that we all have a sense of openness. Um, because we, you know, a big part of our, um, our ethical requirements as our cultural sensitivity and responsiveness and, you know, that requires a sense of openness. You know, not every client is going to, um, live, um, you know, Or have the same cultural values or beliefs as you do. Same thing with your colleagues. Um, so it's important that, you know, that's not something that we take into consideration when we want to provide our clients with the best care. Well, we do take it into consideration, but it's only to provide our clients the best care. Um, without any sorts of, um, judgment. So, um, that's openness. So team members and high openness, uh, I [00:50:00]  think I mentioned this, bring creativity to the table, but you know, maybe they need a clear structure to channel their ideas effectively. Um, I'll give myself as an example and my partnership with Becca. I love trying new things, changing things up. Um, maybe, you know, that's why I love to do design. I just I'm always like, should we change our logo? Should we do this? Um, and, you know, Becca's that channel for me, which we'll get into the conscientiousness. Um, Becca's that channel for me where, you know, she's very open to hear some of my ideas, but she might, you know, she's there to filter them and say, okay, well, A, B, and C look good, and we have time for that, but you know what? Maybe we can put these other on hold. Um, So, openness, as I was starting to say, conscientiousness, that's the personality trait that's a little bit more self disciplined, [00:51:00]  um, meets and exceeds expectations, that little bit more regimented personality, which, uh, Becca, thank you for being there for me. Um, while I do feel like I, um, have a, strong sense of conscientiousness. I still think that that is one of those personality traits that Becca really contributes positively to our duo. Um, so that's also the person that is establishing clear expectation responsibilities with the team. Um, highly conscientious professionals tend to be organized and reliable, um, making them ideal for the roles requiring, um, Planning and follow through. So, and that's, you know, it's very important to have that type of personality on a team. Um, and then another personality, um, in the OCEAN framework is extraversion. So, we all know those We all know extroverts. Um, you know, uh, they're [00:52:00]  energetic. They enjoy working with people. Um, they like to facilitate opportunities for social interaction and teamwork. Um, extroverted team members often excel in roles that require frequent communication. Um, again, hi, I'd love to meet with you in person, Becca. Um, and so, what was that? No, I just was laughing. Um, and, uh, appreciate social interaction, um, such as client facing positions. Um,  Becca Sylvia:  I  Kristi Stearns:  would  Becca Sylvia:  just to kind of add in and thinking about the differences and how things come together with a team and the sense of when we look at, you know, some of that role clarification or the leadership, um, trying to, you know, trying to figure out how a team can kind of work together. I, as Christy mentioned, I definitely am like high on the conscientiousness side of things. Like I can keep track of due dates and I can make sure things are submitted on time and uploaded on [00:53:00]  time and we have it all, have all of our I's dotted, T's crossed, um, what have you. But then less on the extroversion side. So if there is a role that says, okay, this person is going to check in with the client's parents every week and have that face to face conversation, I'm not going to volunteer myself for that role. I can do it, but I'm not going to volunteer myself for that role. But I will take the role of Organizing and filing the paperwork and all of that. And so that's kind of looking at like, okay, this is where my personality lies. And so this is kind of how we can decide that role and work together as a team. And as we'll go into a little bit more, Christie and I are very similar in some ways, but also very different and other ways. And we kind of have learned how we can collaborate effectively in a sense of like, We can take on different jobs because it [00:54:00]  fits our personalities better. Kristi Stearns:  And, you know, it's again, it's not something that happens overnight, obviously, you know, back and I've been collaborating for a really long time. Um, so I think that exposure is important, you know, and going back to the human piece of interacting with your team, you know. You'll learn a lot, not by just having structured team meetings, but by having conversations and learning a little bit more being open, right? And learning a little bit more about who exactly you're working with. Um, you know, we also have a sense of inferencing skills. I would like to think that we also could. You know, based on our just our casual, maybe nonprofessional interactions would be able to get a stronger sense of, um, some of our colleagues preferences and, um, you know, just their, their sense of self. So I think, uh, [00:55:00]  Yeah, tying in these ocean traits to some of what we talked about before, um, this is kind of like a, uh, tying all these pieces together can help achieve the most successful collaboration. Um, Becca, do you want to go into talking about the other two parts of the ocean framework?  Becca Sylvia:  Sure. So we covered the O, the C, the E. Now we'll go into A, which is agreeableness. So basically it is what it sounds like, getting along with others, being agreeable, um, you know, really promoting that culture of empathy, cooperation, wanting to maintain harmony, you know, all really Good things. I would say what could be difficult is if someone is highly agreeable and there is a conflict and not wanting to sort of kind of address the conflict or try to get to the root of it. And that can impact that collaboration and they had a effective work down the line. [00:56:00]  Um, but people who are highly agree. So people who are highly agreeable may not want to be the person to kind of. Address a conflict, whereas someone else who says, I. Doesn't it doesn't impact me as much to not get along with someone or to have a dissenting opinion. I am more willing to do that. They can might be someone who can kind of manage conflicts or kind of take that role. Um, when you're working together on a team. Thanks. Um, and then N is neuroticism. So this is kind of having a tendency towards stronger, let's say negative emotions, but kind of emotions such as like being prone to anxiety. Being prone to prone to getting angry easily. And, you know, this can be a situation. If we go back to the baby in the back seat, someone who is just like, I'm mad because this is not getting done and quick to [00:57:00]  being like, they're not doing this, so and so is not doing their job. And then someone who might be lower on their neuroticism scale might say, you know, that person, I'm going to let them sit through five red light cycles before I even, you know, bring it up or get angry about it. Um, but at the same time, someone who maybe is higher on neuroticism may get stressed easily. So I think that I know you can think about probably people on a team. Maybe yourself who was like, I get so stressed in these situations and I look around and so and so is not stressed or a situation where I'm not stressed that this didn't, this plan we had did not work out well at all today. Whereas someone else might be like this plan didn't work and now I am not going to sleep tonight. So kind of understanding that some people may respond to the same situation. In a more heightened way, or in a less [00:58:00]  heightened way, it can be helpful to know, okay, this is not because they don't care about it as much, or they, it's because of like, this is kind of more of their personality is they're not going to jump to that anxiety or the worry as much. And so, being able to kind of support other people is helpful so that we can kind of, yeah, move the path forward.  Kate Grandbois:  Would you recommend for anyone listening who's maybe thinking about personality tests for the first time or reflecting on how this intersects with their current team? or even how this is reflecting on themselves and what personality traits they may have. Are there certain things that in your reading of the literature and reviewing all this material, um, Are there, is there one that is more beneficial over the other? So in other words, is it, is it more helpful for a clinician to reflect on their own personality and what they're bringing into the table versus [00:59:00]  making assumptions or pigeonholing a colleague? Well, they're very neurotic. So I'm just going to X, Y, and Z. How does that, what would, what would be your thought there in terms of what a clinician can actually do with this information for themselves and for others? Okay. Thanks. Becca Sylvia:  That's a great question. I would say, I think it's been helpful to think about how I think about certain situations and respond to certain situations and might say, okay, um, you know, I, the reason why I, um, Um, less eager to get on the phone with this client is because the extraversion is like harder for me, and it's not in, you know, or, um, the reason why I'm really struggling to change my plan is because, oh, I tend to be a little bit less open. And [01:00:00]  so I guess for me, it's helpful to know that, like, just because I think see things from a certain perspective. It's not how everyone else might see something from a certain perspective. Um, I don't know what you think, Christy, but I think it's been helpful for me to kind of think about where do I fall on these scales and how I can think about other people might fall in a different place and how they might respond or act. Kristi Stearns:  Yeah, and I agree in that sense. I think that, um, where I haven't Taken one of these formal personality assessments in any of my workplaces. I think now that we've read some of the literature about it and we've Um, examined it that, you know, doing the work, so to speak, kind of starts with yourself. So I think even if I didn't have colleagues that were looking at the same information, um, but I've been able to look at this information and kind of, um, do a self [01:01:00]  assessment. I do think that, um, you know, I'm avoiding labeling other people, so to speak, but, um, it helps me understand myself and what. I have the power to change because, you know, you know what they say. You can't change other people. You can only control what you can control. And, um, I think it also helps you put into perspective what you can control. Um, but if we were, I think perhaps some of the most beneficial uses of some of these personality assessments, though, is that, um, you know, you each complete the questionnaire assessment or what have you. And then. Should you feel comfortable in your workplace. Um, that opens up to sharing and a collaborative discussion. Um, so, and then usually I would imagine if this was, uh, during some sort of a workshop that they would go into how the different personality strengths can, [01:02:00]  um, support one another or if maybe if there are certain limitations with different personalities. personality types that, um, uh, where, who can kind of, what other team members can help out in the areas that maybe someone isn't, I don't want to say performing the highest, but, um, you know, like for me, who doesn't meet like the highest bar of conscientiousness, um, You know, Becca shares her questionnaire, and she has a higher level. Okay, great. What can you do? Let's chat. What can you do to contribute, um, to what, uh, to some of the areas that I may need support with? And I think that having this framework, um, It helps take things a little less personal and it helps this whole topic be a little bit more approachable that it's coming from, um, actual literature, you know, self reporting. I think that that helps. Um, but. I think that using this framework and then also [01:03:00]  considering the other frameworks as well that we talked about the competencies and the generational differences, um, can really, can really help with collaboration as a whole. And, um, and again, the ocean traits, you're not just one. full trade and that's all that you are. Obviously these traits exist in ranges. Um, and some folks may be a little bit more on the, you know, the strongly agree side of that range, um, than others. If that answered your question,  Kate Grandbois:  no, it did, um, it, it really did. I, you know, we've talked so much about collaboration on this podcast, but we've never really looked at it through a generational lens or a personality lens. And I, I think that these two components are very helpful in terms of what we bring to the table, the lens that we're looking through when we're interacting with colleagues, um, thinking about our role on the team, what we can contribute areas where we might need more support, or we might need to advocate. For more support. [01:04:00]  Um, this has all been really incredibly helpful. I'm wondering in our last few minutes, if you have any final suggestions or thoughts for our audience.  Becca Sylvia:  Yeah. I mean, as you heard, we did, we kind of, we covered a lot of different things and we just kind of, you know, Um, and we've kind of, um, Dipped our toes into some of these things in terms of dip, the competencies, the generational trends and different personality types. So we wanted to provide a broad overview to say like, these are different things to kind of think about. Um, And when you're thinking about collaboration and you're trying to maybe establish. Good collaboration on a new team or improve collaboration. It can be helpful to think about, okay. Different areas of. You know, interprofessional competencies. Generational trends, personality types, and how they kind of all come together. Um, so our goal was to kind of, you know, increase that awareness of it. And you may [01:05:00]  find like taking bits and pieces of each of these can be helpful for you and your setting. Um, you know, and as you mentioned at the beginning, The reason why we feel so strongly about effective collaboration is that we really do believe that it can improve client outcomes. And so that's what we're here for. It's like when we, when the team collaborates together, the clients went out, um, and it also can be helpful, you know, in terms of having a more inclusive and productive work environment. So saying, you know, like, this is, you know, We can get things done. We can be efficient, but also we can be inclusive and understand that we're all different and being different is not bad. Being different is just being different, you know? Um, and everyone brings their own strengths to work together on a team, whether it's you're working with other health professionals, you're working with a client, or even if you as a speech language pathologist, you are in the same [01:06:00]  setting, and there's two or three of you in the same setting, that intra professional communicate collaboration can also be really helpful. Um, and you know, we just, we want to. As we mentioned before, like understand and respect differences, um, and think about that rather than being bad things that there are strengths that everyone has. And we can, by thinking about strengths, um, that can help with that collaboration and therefore our clients.  Kristi Stearns:  I agree with what Becca said. And, um, you know, you may find that there are certain, uh, maybe personality assessments, maybe, uh, workplace frameworks that are more suitable for the place that you're working. Um, yeah, which is why we wanted to give you, uh, a little bit of an array, but, um, yeah, what Becca said about how just, being inclusive to those differences and having some awareness, um, [01:07:00]  can, you know, just decrease you taking things personally, which can, you know, deter from you doing your best. Um, and the You know, there's a reason why, you know, in the nineties, I think about those posters that say teamwork or, um, you know, all of those like very morale boosting types of, I think of those morale, uh, types of posters on, uh, you know, workplace walls, whatever, but, um, they're reminders, right? Um, and I think that some of these frameworks and assessments Bye. Can give you exposure and reminders, uh, just ways that you can improve your own collaboration, looking inward and, um, and all in all to support, yeah, your, our clients and their families.  Kate Grandbois:  Thank you so much for sharing your time and your hive mind, your collaborative hive mind with us [01:08:00]  and our listeners. This was really wonderful. We're really grateful. Thank you so much.  Becca Sylvia:  Yes, thank you for having us. We enjoyed this a lot.  Kristi Stearns:  Yes, we really appreciate it. Thank you so much for your time.  Becca Sylvia:  Yeah, thank you both so much. This is great. Sponsor 2 Announcer:  Thank you again to our corporate sponsor Ventris Learning, publisher of the Assessment of Literacy and Language, or ALL, and the Diagnostic Evaluation of Language Variation, or the DELV. SLPs, school psychologists, and reading specialists use the ALL to diagnose developmental language disorder and to assess for emergent literacy skills, including dyslexia, for children ages 4 through 6. The DELV is appropriate for students ages 4 through 9 who speak all varieties of English. To learn more, visit www.ventrislearning.com . Kate Grandbois:  Thank you so much for joining us in today's episode, as always, you can use this episode for ASHA CEUs. You can also potentially use this episode for other credits, [01:09:00]  depending on the regulations of your governing body. To determine if this episode will count towards professional development in your area of study. Please check in with your governing bodies or you can go to our website, www.slpnerdcast.com all of the references and information listed throughout the course of the episode will be listed in the show notes. And as always, if you have any questions, please email us at info@slpnerdcast.com thank you so much for joining us and we hope to welcome you back here again soon. .

This transcript is made available as a course accommodation for and is supplementary to this episode / course. This transcript is not intended to be used in place of the podcast episode with the exception of course accommodation. Please note: This transcript was created by robots. We do our best to proof read but there is always a chance we miss something. Find a typo? Email us anytime . [00:00:00]   Intro Kate Grandbois:  Welcome to SLP nerd cast your favorite professional resource for evidence based practice in speech, language pathology. I'm Kate grant wa and I'm Amy  Amy Wonkka:  Wonka. We are both speech, language pathologists working in the field and co-founders of SLP nerd cast. Each  Kate Grandbois:  episode of this podcast is a course offered for ashes EU. Our podcast audio courses are here to help you level up your knowledge and earn those professional development hours that you need. This course. Plus the corresponding short post test is equal to one certificate of attendance to earn CEUs today and take the post test. After this session, follow the link provided in the show notes or head to SLP ncast.com . Amy Wonkka:  Before we get started one quick, disclaimer, our courses are not meant to replace clinical. We do not endorse products, procedures, or other services mentioned by our guests, unless otherwise  Kate Grandbois:  specified. We hope you enjoy  Announcer:  the course. Are you an SLP related [00:01:00]  professional? The SLP nerd cast unlimited subscription gives members access to over 100 courses, offered for ashes, EU, and certificates of attendance. With SLP nerd cast membership, you can earn unlimited EU all year at any time. SLP nerd cast courses are unique evidence based with a focus on information that is useful. When you join SLP nerd cast as a member, you'll have access to the best online platform for continuing education and speech and language pathology. Join as a member today and save 10% using code nerd caster 10. A link for membership is in the show notes Episode Sponsor 1 Kate Grandbois:  Welcome to SLP Nerdcast. We're so excited for our topic today. We are here to talk about something that is under discussed in the field of speech language pathology, and yet at the same time, something that is critically important [00:02:00]  for every single thing we do as speech language pathologists. We're here to talk about counseling, and we have two content experts here with us to make the conversation even better. We're very excited to welcome Dr. Corrie Clark and Kate Mellillo. Welcome Kate and Corrie. Hello. Yeah. Thanks for having us. We're very excited to be here. I was thinking why I listened to this podcast. Amy Wonkka:  We're so happy to have you here. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us today. Um, like Kate mentioned, you're here to discuss counseling with a focus on children and adolescents and executive functioning and relationships. But before we get started, can you please tell us a little bit about yourselves? Kate Melillo:  Sure. I'll go first. Okay. So, um, I'm Kate also. Um, I am a speech pathologist in North Carolina. Um, Cori and I co own Be a Problem Solver Services, which is our private practice. [00:03:00]  Um, and my focus is on executive functioning and social skill building. Um, and our practice is actually both mental health. and speech services. So it's a little bit of a unique combination. You don't see that a lot. Um, and I'm, I also write a lot of social emotional learning content as my other job. So I'm, I'm in this world all the time. And I'm Dr. Corey Clark. I am, um, a licensed clinical mental health counselor. Um, I specialize in working with, uh, children and adolescents and, um, I also teach, uh, a, a clinical mental health counseling program, uh, called the Chicago School and I, I am also the president elect of the Association for Child and Adolescent Counseling, um, and so a lot of my focus is on, you know, the unique work with, uh, counseling children and teenagers. Oh, and we're also married. [00:04:00]  We are also together. So if you hear us having a marital argument, that's great. That's what podcasting is the perfect platform for side chatter. Um, so that's, that's wonderful. And I, I want to circle back. I were tickled that you listened to this podcast. It's always funny for Amy and I to hear that kind of thing because we hang out in a zoom room and then we send these off into the ether. Kate Grandbois:  So it's, it's always nice to hear that. Um, and we're, as I already mentioned, we're so excited to have this conversation, it, you know, counseling touches everything we do, and your practice is unique, and it sounds wonderful blending these two areas of competency, um, and we're very excited to get started. I do need to read our learning objectives and disclosures. I will try and do that as quickly as possible. Learning objective number one. Describe key knowledge areas, attributes, and skills of child counselors To incorporate into speech sessions as they [00:05:00]  intersect from the competencies for counseling children and adolescents. Learning objective number two, describe three relationship based counseling strategies that can be easily included in speech sessions. And learning objective number three, Identify how the mental health strategies discussed intersect with executive functioning treatment in the relationship based model of executive functioning. Disclosures, Corey's financial disclosures. Corey is the co owner of Be A Problem Solver. Corey is the co owner of Be A Problem Solver Services, PLLC, which is a mental health and speech therapy practice, and Be A Problem Solver Education, LLC, a parent education service where Corey received a salary for a speaking fee. Corey is a faculty member at the Chicago school where he receives a salary. Corey is non financial disclosures. Corey is president elect of the association of child and adolescent counseling. Kate's financial disclosures. Kate is the co owner of be a problem solver [00:06:00]  services, PLLC and be a problem solver education, LLC, where she receives a salary and a speaking fee. Kate is a research strategist at 3C Institute where she receives a salary. Kate's non financial disclosures. Kate has no non financial relationships to disclose. Kate, that's me, Kate Granbois. I am the owner and founder of Granbois Therapy and Consulting LLC and co founder of SLP Nerdcast. My non financial disclosures, I'm a member of ASHA SIG 12 and serve on the AAC Advisory Group for Massachusetts Advocates for Children. I'm also a member of the Berkshire Association for Behavior Analysis and Therapy. Amy Wonkka:  Amy, that's me. My financial disclosures are that I'm an employee of a public school system and co founder of SLP Nerdcast, and my non financial disclosures are that I am a member of ASHA Special Interest Group 12, which is AAC, and I also participate in the AAC Advisory Group for Massachusetts Advocates for Children. All right, we've made it through the disclosures and the learning objectives. On to the actual content. Um, [00:07:00]  Kate and Corey, why don't you start us off by telling us a little bit about the first learning objective? So I guess both what are some clinical competencies for counseling children and adolescents, but also why is it important for SLPs to be aware of and to develop these competencies? Cory Clark:  Yeah, so I'll start. Um, this really, for some context, this really started in the last five years where I, as a, um, counselor saw that counselors were being trained to treat adults from a more general model. And I found that working with, um, and teenagers was a very unique process. And I think that really started from working, uh, Kate and I met, uh, working at a preschool and, um, I had a, you know, background in working with kids in that way. And, and I saw that a lot of people were going into the field, just kind of treating kids like little adults, you know, and it was, there was an [00:08:00]  incongruency there. So I was really interested in what makes working with kids and teens unique because I knew there was. A uniqueness there, but I wasn't quite able to pinpoint it. And so, the last five years, I've really been focusing on interviewing experts in the field of, uh, child and adolescent mental health and identifying what makes working with kids and, and, and teens unique and what are the basic best practices and working with, with that population. And so, that is, is where I, um, published and, and, and focused a lot of my dissertation research. best practices for working with kids and teens. Um, and really what it comes down to is really the foundation around child centered therapy. And so what that means is child centered therapy is in its nature very non directive. Um, it is very much based on the Carl Rogers, uh, person centered counseling [00:09:00]  model, which is unconditional positive regard, having congruence and empathy for the, for the person. And And because of that, there's not really a lot of, like, specific behavioral goals in, in, um, child centered therapy, um, but a lot of research supports that a lot of behavioral change and, um, good, uh, coping skills and good development happens from that. Uh, play based child center therapies. So, um, that is sort of the foundation of, of a lot of the, the, um, best practices for working with kids and teens. And so, you know, looking at, uh, What kind of the model that I came out with initially, um, there's attitudes, actions, knowledge and skills. And I broke it down to those four kind of domains. Um, and so go ahead.  Kate Melillo:  Oh, so before we jump in, because are you about to jump into those domains before we jump into that. [00:10:00]   I just want to touch on why this matters for SLPs and why we see like a really big crossover with executive functioning skills. So, you know, I think like if you're listening to this, you're like, well, what does that have to do with what I do on a daily basis? Um, however, like at our practice where. Counseling and speech therapy all the time. I mean, and I think a lot of SLPs, especially when you're new, you go in and then you're like, Oh, I didn't like now a kid is crying in my office. And I didn't expect that. Right. Like, or they're dumping out like, Oh, well, my home, my mom told me this, like, they're just telling you everything. And actually, it's funny. I remember in grad school, I had this one professor who's like, you're going to be so surprised. They're going to come in and tell you everything. Cause you're like the sort of, you know, side person in their life. A lot of times, like you're like this extra [00:11:00]  support person. Who's not the parent. And there's no other, like, side person. Like, you don't have this other, um, stake in the game at, like, you know what I mean? Like, they are kind of coming to you, like, friendly, right? Like, I think, like, the SLP role tends to be really, um, warm, empathetic. The things that Corey just described, but like Kate said, like, we don't get a lot of this training. Um, even though we're doing this relationship based therapy. All the time. Um, and so in terms of where we see it a lot is this like crossover with executive functioning and that's a lot of times because, um, executive functioning at its core is really regulation, right? It's, it's how our brain can regulate itself so that it then can like plan tasks, organize tasks, um, Execute tasks, right? Like impulse control, working memory. Um, [00:12:00]  and a lot of that comes down to emotional regulation. Like I always say, like I describe to my clients, like when you're in mental health. is not in a good space, like your executive functioning skills become scrambled eggs. And so it's really hard for, for students to be regulated, right? Like cope and release emotions and then be like, okay, let's, let's work on pronouns. Like it, it, it just doesn't work like that. The human brain doesn't work like that. And I think a lot of times we go into sessions and we have an agenda where like, these are the goals. That's what you learn in grad school. You're like, these have to be like good functional goals. They must achieve them. The insurance company must approve them and you must do them like, you know, and then we skip over this other stuff. Meanwhile, like, you know. Little Johnny comes into your office and he's like, Oh, my [00:13:00]  grandma died this weekend. Like, you know, I mean, and you're like, but he's the, like, you're the person he trusts. And so he's told you this information. And then you can't be like, well, let's do some grammar, you know, like it, it, it doesn't jive.  Cory Clark:  Yeah, and I, I often say that, um, I am a, I'm the person for a lot of kids, right? And teens. And what that means, what I mean by that is, is a lot of times a kid will have a person that they deem supportive and safe to say those things to. And it might be a counselor, but it might not. It might be a speech therapist and, um, or another professional. And when you're the person, right? Or one of a few persons, um, it's a. Really big responsibility and as far as how you handle those moments where they say, my grandpa died or this and that happened, or I'm feeling X, Y, Z. And so it's important to capitalize on, on creating that space, um, for, for young people. [00:14:00]  And, you know, so, so that's where I'm, I'm going with a lot of this is these best practices, um, are not just. Really just counseling. It's cross discipline in that way, so that you can hold that space. wherever it comes as a professional.  Kate Grandbois:  I also want, I want to piggyback on some of what you've mentioned. It's making me think of a lot of the content that we've produced recently, particularly as it relates to self acceptance. Uh, for example, this has come up a lot in our conversations related to stuttering therapy, uh, or self advocacy. Um, and, You can't really work on self advocacy and self acceptance without counseling and this is what we are now considering to be best practice based on evidence in the field of speech pathology and you cannot uncouple those things. I think there's a specific. Uh, flavor to working as a speech language [00:15:00]  pathologist because you are working closely with someone who is, their existence is living with a communication disorder. That is a communication disability of some sort. That is, that's why we're in their lives. So I don't, I, I wholeheartedly, I'm thrilled to hear some of this, you know, some of these threads being woven together because it is so ingrained in the fabric of what we do. Did you like that little, that little similarity there, the threads in the fabric? I just came up with that on my own. Yeah. Yeah.  Cory Clark:  So going into kind of my, um, more into the background around attitudes, actions, skills, and actions. Um, I think. I looked through the best practices that I've been working on over the years, and there's a few that I want to highlight today that are really relevant, Kate and I feel, to the speech therapy world. Um, and so, Starting with attitude, um, [00:16:00]  specifically, there's three that I want to highlight and, and they are the, the first one is something that a lot of experts mentioned, uh, when asked about, you know, what's important when working with, with children. And that is to meet children where they are. And I heard that over and over again over the years. And I was like, what does that mean? And essentially what they're saying is. You can't go into a session, a speech session, therapy session, um, with a item by item, minute by minute, breakdown of here's what we have to do, here's what we're going to do that entire time. Because kids will come in and throw a curveball or a wrench in that plan real quick. And it's important to be able to be flexible, um, to what, flexible for what, The child or teenager needs to work on or needs to address right like Kate just said if they come in and mention something about their, you know, family member passing away. You can't just be like, well, we got to work on preposition. So we're going to move past that. Right. [00:17:00]  Um, you have to, you know, And, you know, like I say to a lot of my kids, like, think like a palm tree and say, all right, I'm going to bend to this and go, okay, uh, let's pivot. Let's hold some space. Let's reflect and, and, and be supportive and empathetic. Um, so it doesn't mean throw all plans out the window, but it means. meeting children where they are and what they're giving you that on any given day. Um, that attitude is, is very important. And secondly, um, all behavior is communication.  Kate Melillo:  Wait, I want to go back just for a second. So I wanted to say about that mean children where they are, the, you know, we said a couple of negative, really negative examples, but actually The positive example can also help propel your goals forward. So for example, if a kid comes in and they're like, Oh, I'm actually going. You know, like miss Kate, I'm going camping this weekend. Well, I, you know, [00:18:00]  we'll take that and make my examples and therapy about the campaign, right? Like it becomes more relevant. Um, and so it, it doesn't have to be like a big, catastrophic, traumatic event that you're kind of being empathetic to. You're really just like tying into the kid's life and like, great. That's a vocabulary builder. I can talk about planning, right? Like there's executive function. We're going to do working memory. Like there's so many things that can be based off those examples. And I think that, you know, interestingly, I've, I've had the experience where I explained this kind of model to like a newer clinician. And, you know, like I've had job interviews and stuff, like interviewing people to come and work at our, our practice. And they're like, I don't think I can do that. Like, I don't think yet I can, I can, like, that seems like an advanced skill. Um, now granted, I like what Corey and I are saying is, is a clinical, [00:19:00]  is your clinical judgment, like your clinical sense. And that does come with time. So I don't want to make it mean like, this is so easy on the fly. Think of 10 examples that you can use when the kid says one sentence like that. I get that that is like a really hard skill to do. Cool. But I think as SLPs, we can kind of hold this in our mind. Um, and we'll talk about at the end, some examples of how I incorporate, like how I get this going. All of my students know, um, what I'm going to ask at the beginning of every session before they come in. So they're ready and I'm ready. Right. So I've primed it so that like the structure of my sessions is ready for that acceptance, right? It's, it's, ready for whatever's snowballs come my way. Um, and we can talk about that a little later on, but I just wanted to say, I just wanted to note that I get that this is like, uh, takes a little bit of practice, especially if you're used to going in and being like, you know, this is what we're doing today. Um, it's [00:20:00]  definitely a change in that. And you're in your own attitude, which is also what Corey's found in the counseling world as well.  Cory Clark:  Yeah, I think, yeah, I think everyone has their own, uh, uh, preference in terms of how they want to go into a session. And also it's based on what your, um, specialties are and how you run your, your practice. Um, for me, being flexible is just, that's what I prefer, you know, and I, I don't have a lot of agenda in, in, um. A lot of my sessions don't  Kate Melillo:  like to plan anything.  Cory Clark:  I don't. I'm just like, I just want to walk in and say, how's it going? Yeah, I love it. But there's plenty of professionals that I work with that are like, no, I need I need an agenda. I need this. It's very structured. Um, so, you know, for some, it'll be natural. Some not as much. Um, but. The, the second thing I, I want to highlight is all behavior is communication and um, that sort of attitude and understanding is important with kids and teens because there's a, there's a saying in the, in the child [00:21:00]  counseling world, um, so it's important to listen with your eyes because when you're working with young people, they're going to be giving you a lot of information content wise, particularly when how they talk, what they're saying, um, what it's about, you know, what you're working on, but also, um, Non verbally, what are they giving you? What are they saying? Um, what is their body doing? And both of those things have to happen at the same time, listening with your ears and with your eyes. Uh, because kids communicate so much, in particular, and teenagers for sure, um, with how they're, how they're sitting. Are they fidgeting? Are they, You know, do they need to move? Um, do they need a break? Are they listening? Are they focused? Um, what is their affect? All of these things are happening in real time. And it's important to be attuned to that because otherwise you're going to miss really important cues as far as how they're able to be present with you and how they are in that moment. And if you can reflect some of [00:22:00]  that, That's really, really valuable learning for them and awareness. What does  Kate Melillo:  reflect some of that mean?  Cory Clark:  Um, I noticed that, you know, you're, when I ask you to do this, you start to fizz it around in your chair. It seems to me like you may be a little nervous. You're not sure what to do, right? That's a reflection of like, Maybe they know they're doing that, maybe they have no idea. But, and sometimes it's, you know, not accurate. Maybe it's a reflection that they'll correct me on. It's also a good opportunity for them to advocate and say, No, it's this or that. Um, but regardless, you know, listening with your eyes involves that real time kind of, interaction where you're listening to what they're telling you without words. Kate Melillo:  I also think it's ironic because it is what like we teach when we're teaching perspective taking skills, right? And social skills were like, look at the other person. What are they telling you? You know, like look at their body language. Like what did that, what did it mean when they started to walk away when you were in the middle of your sentence, right? Like it's so I think too, like [00:23:00]  we're sometimes go into the sessions, like not doing the things that we're trying to teach. And I, I, I like that, you know, in the counseling world, there is this piece of reflection because it, it, it brings everybody together, right? Like you as the clinician and the student, right? So you've got both parties being like, Oh, I recognize there's a behavior here. And I I'm, what am I trying to say or communicate to this other person?  Cory Clark:  Yeah, and the third aspect of sort of attitudes and understandings that I want to highlight is that all children must be and teenagers must be viewed holistically. And what I mean by that is sometimes it's easy to fall into kind of a The trap where you are looking at one particular aspect of development, whether it be, you know, from the counseling world, like a emotional development or something with relationships, um, [00:24:00]  but you have to think about young people in terms of all aspects of their development and, you know, in particular, I often kind of. Disregard or discredit certain things, not intentionally, but be like, oh, that, you know, looking at how they're doing emotionally at school is very much tied to their social life and their social development and also what's going on at home, right? And also physically, um, their physical development, how is that impacting their social life, especially with like tweens and teens and all of that, right? So you have to consider all these, you know, domains when you're working with, with young people.  Kate Melillo:  I think we hear this all the time. If you have a middle school student with articulation errors, you are not just like, Hey, let's fix those errors. It is impacting them socially, right? Like those friendships are coming into play. Um, and I, so I think this like core best practice of the [00:25:00]  holistic child is so important because, and I think, I do think like Some of these things are becoming more mainstream in SLP, where we are starting to look at, hey, how does this affect you in these ways? And maybe you're making, you're working on some like, um, social, like, strategies to, you know, help, not just with the articulation disorder part of it, right? So like, you're, you're, you're using multiple domains there, um, to help that kid. But I think that, It's different than what we thought of as like the traditional Western medicine model where we're like, let's just treat these one this one symptom and make it better. Like we really actually need to be looking at everything because that's going to round out a kid's mental health, and the way they interact with the world. Cory Clark:  And I, so the next. area, the domain that I want to talk about are knowledge bases [00:26:00]  and understandings, um, of counseling with children and teenagers. Um, and the first one I, I really want to focus on is, is the most common, um, issue I hear. And when people come to see me in counseling, they will say that, um, they've tried counseling before or they've tried some sort of, um, therapy service before. And the parents or guardians or caregivers were left feeling like I had no idea what was going on. Uh, they never told me, they just kind of went back into the session and I didn't know what was happening. And then they were left frustrated, like, I don't know what the goals are, what's going on, right? Or they didn't understand them. And so they come to me, like, will you let me know, like, what's going on, like, you know? And, um, I always tell them that although I'm, you know, I'm not going to say exactly what the content is of the session, like there's privacy there. You will always know what my treatment plan is and what my background [00:27:00]  is and what my training is and how I intend to use that to support your child or teenager. Um, so the, the first really knowledge base that I wanted to focus on is, um, how to involve family or caregivers or guardians in therapy services. Um, it's so important to involve. Other stakeholders in a sense, but family members in, uh, as appropriate, because kids and teens operate in a system, uh, they're part of a system, and you have to be able to translate what you're doing to, um, how it can be reinforced at home and other settings, um, so that involves communicating a lot of those goals and a lot of those things to parents and to, to, um, family members. And that can be tricky, um, depending on what the situation is in, in your service, um, but you have to be able to, to translate that, um, or else you risk losing the [00:28:00]  connection you have, um, with, with the family, um, and they'll pull, you know, maybe prematurely pull them from services or feel like it's ineffective. Or, in a lot of cases, think that you're not doing effective work because they don't really understand what, what the goals are.  Kate Melillo:  Well, and I was also going to add, because a separate, a separate best practice is also the developmental models and how to apply them, and I want to just integrate this into the sharing with the family, because the other thing we hear quite a bit is, you know, families will come and say, Like, I didn't know what was going on and not really for, for speech. I actually have a lot of parents in my sessions. I, I, I just prefer that. Sometimes if it doesn't work with the kid, I'm like, okay, you got to get out because you're, you're entering this session parent. Um, but I like the parents to hear because a lot of times I'm giving homework to the family and which is more counseling ask, right? Like, I'm like, this is how we're going to integrate this because we do hear a lot. Oh, I've tried that before, and it doesn't work. [00:29:00]  Um, Cory hears that in counseling all the time. Yeah. And the, uh, the developmental piece that I wanted to point out is, you know, we are in this field, we're experts at these developmental theories. Like, we know all of this, like, background information that a layperson parent doesn't know. So a lot of times parents will come and say, like, you know, Oh, my kid is like now climbing the bed with me. It, they don't sleep anymore, blah, blah, blah. And maybe that in that kid's life, you know, they're going through a developmental transition, which we know about. And we have other parents come and tell us like their eight year old did the same thing. And we're like, okay, now we can show that that's fairly common, but not every. You know, person is going to know, like Erickson, Piaget, Bandura, like they're not going to know that. And a lot of times SLPs, uh, we get like a little bit of that. And I feel like it also depends on your grad school program, right? Like where the focus was on those things. And they're so varied that maybe you [00:30:00]  don't know as much about that. Which is why it's like, we're talking about this because that's something to share with parents. Um, hey, let me find out more information about that for you. That's helpful. Or make a referral, which we'll talk about at the at the end here, but I I'm pointing that out because I think that there's times when families feel like they're just. navigating this alone. They're the only person that it's happened to. Um, and that it's just, that's just usually not true, actually. Like usually it's happening to a lot of people, but nobody's telling them that. And so when they come in your office, they're like, hello, professional person, do you have the answers for me? Um, you know, and so it's a good, it's a, it's always a good idea to involve the family as much as you can.  Cory Clark:  Yeah, and the next, uh, understanding that I want to highlight, I just want to have a caveat about, um, and that is, it's important to understand the basic foundations of play therapy, and the caveat there that I want to [00:31:00]  distinguish, I do not expect this. I did not expect every therapist to be a registered play therapist. I did not expect speech therapists and other professionals to be play therapists, um, that has a separate and distinct, uh, licensure and, and process and credential. But, the foundations of play are important to consider in working with kids and into teenage years, um, because they allow, um, Young people to express themselves in their natural, in the natural form, which is play. And, um, and so a couple of important points about play therapy, um, they, it's important to accept children exactly as they are and allow themselves to express themselves freely, um, and have a sense of permissiveness to do that. So, you know, thinking about where your, your practice is, whether it's telehealth or, um, an outpatient setting or a clinic somewhere. You have to think about what is that setting doing for them to be able to express themselves, [00:32:00]  um, and you have to ask yourself, like, what, what does that look like for you and your practice? Um, it's important that they have that space. They feel free to express and be themselves with whatever they're, you know, intending to do. Um, and as a therapist, you reflect what they're doing, like listening with your eyes, and um, allow them to gain insight into their own behavior. So that looks like, it can feel very, um, odd at times, because, you know, you're almost like narrating their life, like, like a, you know, bird's eye view, if you will. You know, someone's like playing and they're like, they hand you something rather than just, you know, like they're handing you a figure, you know, and they start, they want you to play with them. My instinct as like a father is to take my son's, you know, figure that he gives me and then I'm going to create like a game with it or a story or whatever. Let's play therapy a lot of times in most modalities. You're not going to do that. You're not going [00:33:00]  to direct them and, you know, say, Oh, now I'm going to create a story. You're going to say, Oh, you want me to play with you. You're really excited for me to play. No, you're giving me that. Okay. And then you sit down and you let them dictate what the play is. Because they're communicating that way. Right. And so in, in a, in a speech sense and that speech therapy, in a sense, it's being able to reflect what, um, your client, what your, your person is, is giving you in a way that allows them to gain insight into their own behavior and their own affect and feelings. Um, and that's really, really healthy and important for their development.  Kate Melillo:  Well, and I think speech therapists, speech therapists are doing this, right? Like if you think about like. the fundamentals of like early intervention really, you know, here's, you're at a kid's house and you're like, here's the farm that you have. I'll just use the good old farm example, where, you know, you're like, Here's the cow. What does the cow say? Right. So you've got a lot of opportunities there for [00:34:00]  like vocabulary building and all of that other like syntax stuff that you want to target. Um, and I, I, I wanted to point out that so play therapy gets the rap of being for little kids. Um, but court. So we haven't mentioned this yet. We didn't say this because this isn't really that relevant yet, but so we're also both trained improvisers. And so we do a lot of improv with our clients, especially tweens and teens. Because I think that the other thing about play therapy is that it's about that acceptance. And those improv games, that is what they are, right? Like if you've ever heard the concept of yes and it's, I accept the idea that you've just given me and I'm going to build on it. And that is what, that's actually what you're doing when you're in your little farm scene. That's what you're doing, right? It would be weird if the kid was like, here's my cow and the cow wants to drink. And you were like, [00:35:00]  ah, that cow's actually on a rocket ship going to the moon like that. Right. And that doesn't make any sense. That is one of the fundamentals of improv comedy. And so we use that a lot. And I think, um, it's confusing to parents, parents will, how many times have you heard, Oh, all they do, they go to that therapy and all they do is play. Um,  Cory Clark:  It's like saying, oh, I went to therapy and all I did was talk. And it's like, that's, that's right. You know, playing is communication. But, but that's not a common, I don't think, understanding that like, You know, and play therapy is very evidence based, and it's very, um, it's very clear how to do it once you learn it, um, but it's very misunderstood because we use the word play all the time, like, let my kid play, and my kid's playing in the other room, um, but, you know, I use so much improv with, with kids and teens where, you know, I'll have a figure and it looks like a superhero to me, like, But they'll hand it to me and say dad or whatever. I'm like, okay, this is [00:36:00]  dad, right? Like you accept what they're giving you and in that way They're telling you their story and you get to hear it from their lens not you know What your instinct is tell you like no, this is a figure of Batman, you know, whatever, right? So you have to be able to roll with that again be flexible and meet them where they are and reflect And I think that's essential  Kate Grandbois:  I, the only thing I have to add to that is some of my own experience. I've been trained. I had to go through this very specific training in child led play and it was hard. It was so much harder than I expected it to be because of exactly what you said. I'm like, Oh, playing. I can get on the floor. I can do some Legos. I can get out the cow and the chickens and you know, make some animal noises and make it fun. I can play. I know how to play. I'm a pediatric therapist, but really taking the child's lead and filtering your own responses and not coming up with [00:37:00]  directives and not asking a ton of questions and really letting them direct where the play goes is a Harder than you think. So if anyone is listening, and I just, I think it's a, it's a great exercise. What you're, what you're proposing is a really great exercise to really think about what play means from a therapeutic evidence based lens, because it might not be That colloquial casual. Oh, we're just playing. We're just on the floor. It's very different and it's gonna feel hard It can feel challenging. That was my experience  Cory Clark:  It's and it's so hard that I mean it's important to note There are some modalities that are more directive play therapy but You know, without getting into the nuance of that, um, there's a misunderstanding that like, oh, if I play UNO with a child, that's play therapy and that's, that's free play. That's, that's playing a back and forth game that has set designed rules. Um, so that's not play therapy. That's playing a game, right? So there's all these. You know, misunderstandings [00:38:00]  based on the language really. Um, and play therapy is, is a distinct process. Um, and I always say the most exhausted I am after a session is a non directed play therapy session because, uh, 45 to 55 minute session is, It goes by, you know, it's, it's exhausting. Kate Melillo:  Well, and I would say too, like, I don't know if you guys, have you read the Declarative Language Handbook by Linda K. Murphy? I love that book. It's a really good resource. It's not a play therapy book, but I use it a lot. And Cory mentioned terms that were declarative language. Like, I see you're doing this. What happens next, you know, um, Tara Sumter, too. She has her reflexive questioning guide. Like, those are also those reflexive questions. And it is, Kate, like, to your point, so hard to, like, bite your tongue and be like, But didn't you mean this? You know, and, or, like, weren't you going to do this with this? Or, like, you're trying to guess the kid's plan. And that's actually not teaching [00:39:00]  them the skill for that, like, future thinking, right? Those executive functioning actions of, like, Oh. You wanted to see what I was going to do. And then when they make a choice that's like, I don't, I don't know if that was what we were going for here. Then you're, you have the opportunity to discuss it and see how you could have done it differently. Whereas if you had done the directive play, you would not have gotten to that point. Um, it's also why we love those improv games because they're They're totally impulsive. Like you don't actually know what the kid's thinking. We can't know what anyone is thinking, you know, um, which is a big, that's a big like nugget there between the counseling and SLP world because we, since we do tend to go in with like, here's our strict, you know, plan that we've got, here's our goals and counseling. It's a, it's really a free for all. You're there to share what, It's going on with you. Um, and as [00:40:00]  SLPs, I think we, we tend to, I don't want to say like disregard it, but we're just not as, you know, it's not our area. We're not as skilled at looking for those clues. But when we do something like a child centered play therapy session. We open up the door, right? If we, if we allow kids to kind of lead, um, and also not tell them what they're supposed to do,  Cory Clark:  what we thought they were  Kate Melillo:  going to do,  Cory Clark:  right. And if, and if you're listening like, well, I'm not a play therapist, how would I know how to do that? And I do not expect even every therapist, every counselor to be a play therapist again. It's about. Um, understanding the foundations of what, what play can mean in counseling or can mean in therapy, um, and what it looks like and how you can reflect in a way that allows for that development, right? That's, that's incorporating play in, in therapy. That's, that's what this is about. Um, and the last kind of thing I want to mention about understandings and, um, knowledge bases [00:41:00]  is atypical versus typical child development. We all learn development of models in school and we learn, you know, the basics, but it's easy to forget some of the more kind of subtle pieces of development. For example, you know, someone will come in. And I'll hear, um, you know, uh, concerns from a parent or guardian around how their child is just so rigid about, you know, a sense of justice, like, it's not fair that my sibling gets this, or why does this peer or classmate get to do this and I don't, and it causes problems, and I'll have to kind of remember, oh, there's a very specific point in child development where that is just front and center in their development, like, I, this, deserve this, and this, and like, and there's very black and white thinking that is common, uh, as part of development. So, sometimes, you know, the therapy session involves me kind of walking through [00:42:00]  typical kind of phases that, that kids are going through that is commonly seen in certain ages. Um, and so it's important to kind of think about, okay, Is this behavior or is this issue, um, part of like common social development or is this something that's like, ooh, that they're 14 and still kind of chronologically still kind of struggling with this thing that is usually seen chronologically at age 8. And, um, we're doing that a lot as professionals in speech, I'm sure, but it's easy to kind of get lost in the nuance of that. Mm  Kate Melillo:  hmm.  Cory Clark:  All right. So, um, moving into. best practices and skills from a counseling sense. Um, I've mentioned a lot of these before, but the first one, you know, basic counseling micro skills is what, what I'll say. Um, what are micro skills? These are the little, not little, but subtle behaviors that a counselor or a [00:43:00]  therapist does in sessions to allow someone to feel heard, to feel supported, to feel that they're not judged. And so, you know, the main things I want to highlight are It's important to reflect, like I've mentioned before, um, what you're, what you're getting and, um, encourage rather than praise, uh, so, you know, I always have to stop myself from saying like, oh, that's  Kate Melillo:  good job,  Cory Clark:  good job with that drawing you made, right? And that's, that's praise. Um, encouragement is your work. You worked really hard on that. You were so focused when you were doing that, right? That is encouraging them and their behavior in the process rather than the end product. Um, so, uh, another important piece is being creative, um, and in sessions. Um, so. You know, being able to tailor what you're working on, um, as far as your goals and sessions to be, you know, being creative around how that looks. Um, we get, we settle into our, our favorites kind of [00:44:00]  activities or interventions. And sometimes we can get frustrated when we're like, oh, that didn't, it's not working. Right. And it's important to be creative, um, as far as how you. adapt to, you know, what a, a young person is giving you in sessions. Um, and, you know, staying up to date on, on the, um, at most evidence based practices in your field, I think is another piece that you have to always incorporate, um, like doing this, like staying up to date with, with your, what you listen to and, and trainings and, you know, specialties. Um,  Kate Melillo:  I would say like, so this like resonates with me for my just SLP practice where. I get in like ruts of I use the same material or there's a trend I'm seeing with a lot of kids at the same time. And so I'm like saying the same thing over and over or something like that, right? Like you're just like, you get in these like cycles of like, oh, I'm really hot on this game right now or [00:45:00]  whatever. Um, I don't know if that resonates with everybody. Maybe people are just like way more creative than me, but I don't think that it's, it's not just about like, there's some really creative, like type B SLPs. You know, like if you like a teacher's pay teachers who make like amazing materials and I'm like, wow, that's incredible. But beyond that, I think it's about creativity in the way you think like using. practices that you wouldn't normally do or even like leaving the room that you're in. Like, you know what I mean? Like just thinking outside the box a little bit, um, which again, I know is a stretch because sometimes they're so limited and what the timing that we have for a session, like the space that we're in for a session, those are all realities. So I'm not trying to like, give you a blue sky pipe dream here, but I think that it's, That's where it really resonates with me because I feel like I, I personally, I feel like I do a good job keeping up with evidence based practice. And then I'm like, how can I even implement this? Like, this is going to be hard for [00:46:00]  me to do, even though I know it's the right thing. Um, yeah. Yeah.  Cory Clark:  And that sort of leads into my, my last kind of domain around. Clinical skills, and that is, you know, actions in and out of sessions. And the first one is about, you know, again, making sure you're have the right supervisor, the right CEUs, the right education over time to match what your people are giving you, right? What they're presenting to you. Um, and then making referrals appropriately as, as you need to. Um, we see it a lot with our practice with it being a speech and counseling practice. Um, know, What an appropriate referral to counseling looks like, or to OT, or to physical therapy, or to feeding therapy, or, no, makes sense, speech therapists, but, um, other professionals. Because, you know, for example, a common kind of stuck point is, if a young person's anxiety has gotten to the [00:47:00]  point where it's so severe across settings, they can't really learn very effectively at school, or in a speech therapy session, because they're so Uh, and a heightened state of tension and anxiety. Uh, they need more support and getting to a place where they can, you know, be regulated to learn. Um, and so knowing how to, to refer, knowing where to refer, getting to know your area, I think is really important. Um, so, you know, researching that and, and kind of making a few calls if you need to, to see what's open in your area, what's appropriate referrals is important. Um, and then I've mentioned this before, but the last one is, you know, empowering others to have a larger role in their child or teenager's life. So again, that's involving family as needed, um, as appropriate. To, you know, allow them to reinforce the things you're working on, um, is, is really important in working with young people. [00:48:00]   Kate Melillo:  Um, okay. So I wanted to talk about like, we just, Corey just told us like so many things and there's actually like a billion other best practices that he researched. And those are like just the highlights. So I realized if you're like falling asleep now, you're like, okay, thank you. That's enough. Um, yeah, yeah. Sorry. You're boring. Nobody's falling asleep.  Kate Grandbois:  We're on the edge of our seats over here. We're listening  Kate Melillo:  with our eyes. Yeah, there you go. There you go. There you go. Um, but I think so taking all that I've mentioned it before. Um, I, I read this, I think it was, I'm in Tara center's community for executive functioning and I, somebody posted like something. It was like, um, once you see executive functioning, you can't unsee it. I don't know who said it. So I'm trying to give credit to the person who said it, but that, that is like, My whole life because a lot of times really every session kids are coming in and I'm like, oh gosh, like there's so many, it's not just those like surface [00:49:00]  goals, those symptom things that I need to address. It's really how the entire brain is functioning as a whole. And that's why I mentioned at the beginning that like, when your mental health is, is not in a good. space, your, your executive functioning becomes scrambled eggs, then you can't do a lot of other things. Right. So there's sort of this like hierarchy, um, where you, you're needing, like Corey just mentioned, making those referrals appropriately so that you get services in an order that makes sense to you. Like there's a lot of times where I get parents coming in and saying, Oh, I want executive functioning therapy for my kid. But then I learn like, The parents are going through a recent divorce and, you know, the kid lost a bunch of friends because he had to move due to that, right? Like, so there I'm like, Oh, let's pause this for a minute. Like, I get that. Maybe he's not firing on all cylinders, but there's other reasons for that. And so we see this crossover with counseling and executive functioning all the time. [00:50:00]  Um, You know that exact. Oh, I haven't even mentioned the word anxiety yet. I don't know. Have you, have you guys see this? I see, I, I work with a lot of teenagers and like tweens and the level of anxiety that I see on a daily basis is, is really striking. I mean, and there is also new literature about this, right? Like we know that the mental health stigma. Um, state of tweens and adolescents in the past five to 10 years has significantly, anxiety has significantly increased. So it's, it doesn't surprise me anymore, but it's almost like I immediately have to take that consideration into my treatment plan. Um, because honestly, sometimes I have to parse apart with parents, like, Ooh, this trouble with executive functioning is actually anxiety, right? And, and they go, so they're so closely related that what the behavior looks like, right, [00:51:00]  that what the kid is doing, um, that the parents like, well, What do you mean? Like if he, okay, prime example, my kid doesn't want to go to school in the morning. And I'm like, yep. Okay. So what, why is that? And they're like, well, they, because they're ADHD. And so they don't like, they can't get their backpack together. They can't do this. They can't do that. Well, few sessions in, then I'm finding out like their first period is math. They don't want to go be going to math class. They are procrastinating for that and that is actually a symptom of anxiety. And so I'm having to like really juggle like this. We have to address that anxiety piece because yes, they probably do need help getting that backpack organized. Let's be honest. Like a middle school boy backpack. I don't know if you guys have seen them, but they're a nightmare. Um, there's a lot of crumbs, unexplained crumbs and crumpled papers. As a parent  Kate Grandbois:  of two tweens, I can confirm the crumbs.  Kate Melillo:   [00:52:00]  It's a real  Kate Grandbois:  problem. It  Kate Melillo:  is a huge problem. It's not always like the kid has, you know, this like severe executive functioning disorder. Sometimes they do. Um, and every middle schooler could use executive functioning help. Let's be honest. But the, the brain regions between, um, That prefrontal cortex and limbic system, like they're going, you know, I don't know if anyone wanted a brain review today, but executive functions live in that prefrontal cortex and those emotion responses that emotional regulation lives in the limbic system and they interplay, right? And so if the kid is having a ton of anxiety, uh, or. Depression, a lot of fear, a lot of times, a lot of fear in the tween space, right? Because it's a new, you've got hormones, you've got new friends, you've got transition to middle school, like there's so many factors at play. Um, so to bridge this kind of gap, we try [00:53:00]  really hard in our practice to like, build on these relationships, which goes, this is where those best practices that Corey talked about come in. Those are all relationship building practices that I think we need to do a little bit better job of incorporating into our speech sessions so that we can parse apart. Is this anxiety? Is this actually executive functioning? Is this, you know, a pragmatic language disorder? Right? Those, those kids with, um, ASD, ADHD, you know, disruptive behaviors a lot of times, like if you have kids on a BIP, or you know, does everyone know what a behavior intervention plan? You don't know sometimes, like, what's the origin? of this, right? A lot of times, um, on my case, so to get kids who are just like simply misunderstood, uh, and some of their behaviors are, they are from ADHD, but they have never been addressed with actual executive [00:54:00]  functioning strategies. They are often just like, go in this other room, be pulled out to this other class that will help you. And then they throw a chair in that other class. And they're like, why didn't this help? You know, like, Ooh, well, what, probably if you, you can't unsee the executive functioning. So part of the relationship building is also getting that team. Corey and I just talked about this with the family. The other thing we didn't mention is like related caregivers. You know, um, we, at our practice, we have it so that like, if. A lot of times, Corey and I will see the same client for different things. And so, like, we're talking to each other with permission, right? Like, getting those, um, other providers on the phone sometimes can be really helpful. Because I've also found that when I have a kid come to me for executive functioning therapy, but they're also receiving counseling somewhere, they, a lot of times, tell me things that they don't tell the counselor. And I'm like, You know, and [00:55:00]  it goes back to what I said at the beginning, where like, the counselor seems more threatening, maybe, right, like, I'm supposed to go there and tell them all these deep, dark secrets, but if I go to Miss Kate, I'm just like, well, you know, like, I stole a candy bar, you know, like whatever it is, like, I don't know. I live in like 1955. So like, I'm like, go to the corner store. Yeah. And I love that milkshake. I don't know. Um, but we're trying to like get the everybody on the same page. Um, So when we're trying to bridge these gap in sessions, this is what one of the things that I do at the beginning of every session. I, and some people I've heard a couple of people mentioned this, like in my SLP circles, I do a high low and a Buffalo at the beginning of every single session. Um, so. My kids know that I'm going to ask this. I actually love it. It's great working memory. It's like excellent working memory. That's right off the [00:56:00]  bat, like executive functioning, and they don't even know I'm targeting it. And I'm like, what's your high, low Buffalo? So high, something good that happened to you. A low, something not good that happened. And a Buffalo's weird, funny, silly, interesting, kind of out of the ordinary. And I, you know, every single tween or teen will be like, I don't know. Whereas I've seen this kid for a year and they know exactly what I'm going to ask at the beginning of the session, I'm like, nope, we've, we've got a good thing going here. You're going to tell me all about your life. Um, you know, I've heard like there's some, there's like a rose and a thorn is another one that people use. So that's like a good thing and a not good thing. I, I tend to like the buffalo just because it makes a little more fun. Um, I like the buffalo. I've never heard the buffalo before and I like that a lot. But I set the precedent that the session is going to be about the kid, right? So like, those kids know that they're one going to be asked that question. And two, that I kind of expect them to to share [00:57:00]  something meaningful because like I said earlier, I will take that information to inform how I target those goals that day. And I, again, realize that that's, this is a little bit of an advanced skill. You do have to have like kind of a lot of things in your toolkit in order to be able to do that. But once you get good at it and make that the expectation, it becomes easier, right? You've got. This opens the door for like all of that play stuff. Like our first example of a strategy is small world play. I don't know if you guys call it small, small world is kind of like the dollhouse or the farm or in there. I've never heard it called small world play, but I like that. I used to work at, Corey and I, another fun fact, I used to live and teach abroad, and I worked at the British School of Beijing for a couple years, and in the UK curriculum, that's what they call it, is Small World's Play. So you're a little. I love it. I know, it's such a good little name for that.  Cory Clark:  Right.  Kate Melillo:  Um, that, and, and Corey too, we [00:58:00]  haven't talked about SANTRE, which is a whole other certification for, for counseling. But SANTRE is basically miniatures.  Cory Clark:  Yeah, a lot of minifigs.  Kate Melillo:  Yeah, like minifigs in the, in a SANTRE. And that is like a, cause, The reason they do that is it's a blank slate  Kate Grandbois:  like  Kate Melillo:  we were talking about earlier with play therapy. It's like a totally there's no predetermined thing. It's just whatever you're creating that sand tray. So when you're one, I start the session with this high low Buffalo. And then if we're using this example of small world play. I, this leans into heavily what we were saying earlier, you've got a lot of improvisational problem solving and perspective taking. I tend to, um, I, I really love the phrase reading the room. I use it a lot. Like, I try to give my, and we'll talk about this with social dilemmas too, but I try to make sure that like, Even if my kids like my students on my caseload don't have like [00:59:00]  glaring pragmatic issues. I'm still incorporating this in a small world scenes because they're just there. There's that is like the integration of life, right? Like that is taking the communication skills that you've been practicing and and throwing them into some sort of like realistic scenario. Um, so I love small world play for, for those social nuances and targeting some of that. And then you get that extra piece of counseling where you can reflect and empathize, right? All the skills that we just talked about before.  Cory Clark:  Yeah, and I want to talk about one exercise I love to do that's, it's more of an art therapy blend, but it's an excellent crossover between mental health and executive functioning kind of therapies. So what I do is, I saw it from an exercise for particularly with those with ADHD, but it can work well with any, any young person. Um, [01:00:00]  So I, I get a video from YouTube, just find something, a short, maybe five minute ish, uh, video of how to draw a basic. thing, right? Like how to draw a dog, how to draw an elephant, or a house, whatever. And I will put it on with the instruction, uh, that me, myself, and the, um, child or teenager are going to draw it together. Um, we each have our own paper. We're going to draw this house or this elephant together. And that's it. I'm not going to stop the video. We're just going to draw. And I, at that point, I've done it, uh, a bunch of times, right? I do it over time. And so I, can just do it, or it's, it's, I'm not great, it's not perfect, but it's, I can do it. Um, but it's their first time ever seeing this video. And so, we just draw it, without stopping, and then when it's over, it's done, right? It's simple, right? Like, we're just drawing an elephant, for example. But what we do is, in processing it, it's important to then say, Okay, a lot of [01:01:00]  kids, for example, will get frustrated because it's too fast. And so what do they do? They either quit, or they start purposely messing up, or they put an X through it, or they're scramble the crumple the paper, right? Um, or maybe they do it, but they're working through a lot of, um, frustration tolerance or a lot of negative thoughts during, right? And that mimics a lot of school, a lot of school behaviors where if they get lost in math or lost in something, um, it mimics that process. And so it allows me to work in real time to process. Okay. What was going on in your head when you started to, you know, get, get behind and drawing that elephant or, um, what do you think I was thinking while I was doing that, right? Perspective taking. Um, what kind of allowed you to keep drawing even though it was getting harder and harder to keep up, right? Um, I noticed you put the pen down and quit after about three minutes. What was going on? What happened, right? Um, it allows you to [01:02:00]  process with them. Kind of what barriers they had, um, you know, what kind of thinking traps they had or distortions, um, and kind of really make a plan for, okay, next time, what can we do that where you can work through that? And then we'll do it again, right? Um, either next session or whatever, um, to, to work on that process so they can translate that across settings.  Kate Melillo:  Well, and that's executive functioning one on one, right? That second piece of like here, next time we're going to make a plan for how to do this and we're going to apply these steps So that you can be successful because then, you know, maybe the kid has an issue with initiation, right? Like you're making a plan to get over that hump. Maybe it was the emotional regulation or making a plan to get over that hump. Those are all those executive functioning skills that a lot of times we see behaviors for, and they're misconstrued or misdiagnosed as possible language disorder. Or Pragmatic disorder when in fact, like they're really lying executive functioning. [01:03:00]  Um,  Cory Clark:  although one time I did that and uh, This is teenager. No, they drew the most amazing elephant i've ever seen in the entire world And I was just like, uh, let's process it. That was just amazing. Good job I didn't know what to I don't know how to like do my process after that. They just  Kate Melillo:  Great artists. Yeah.  Cory Clark:  Yeah  Kate Melillo:  So the last, the last kind of example here, which I think a lot of SLPs use, and there's, there are a lot of resources for this, are social dilemmas. You know, any of these like social cards, we also have, um, like some of the teen talk cards. We really liked those at our practice too, which are a little bit more open ended than the dilemma itself. Um, and I'm sure every SLP has seen these vignettes of a social dilemma. Like, what would you do? The. The thing that I think makes it a little bit lean into the mental health piece more is if you can start incorporating more of the emotional language that goes along with these, [01:04:00]  because sometimes we're focused on the problem solving outcome. And so we want the kid to quote unquote do the right thing. Um, and I know in like the neurodiversity world we're, we're, Leaning away from that and saying, like, well, what is your perspective on the situation? What was the other person's perspective on the situation? As opposed to this is the right way to do it. This is the wrong way to do it. Um, but I think that one of the important things is pointing out those emotions that come with what happens with the social dilemma, right? Like, um, There's that the concept of those like upstairs downstairs thoughts, which I think is Dan Siegel. I want to say it's Dan Siegel who it could be. I would have to check that. But I think that's because that's on the what's that workbook? Yeah,  Cory Clark:  it's upstairs and downstairs brain.  Kate Melillo:  Yeah, yeah. Um, so if you're not familiar with his work, that's a he's a really good resource. He's got like workbooks that go along with those. [01:05:00]  Like emotional thought processes, and in the SLP world, we're, we do tend to look at that perspective taking piece, um, but there's more involved in it than that, right? Like, why did that person, like, why did that person do that action? Well, they were feeling XYZ, right? And so I think that there's a really big crossover opportunity there. Um, and also we have not talked about this, which is self monitoring. And self advocacy. So self monitoring is like, well, what I would do in this situation is this. Um, and then I'm like, how do we feel about that choice? Right? Like providing that, or we can give social dilemmas, have them play them out, role play, and then self monitor. Those responses. Um, I use a scale of negative two to positive two. In my practice, I do not like a scale of one to 10 when I'm self monitoring, um, because [01:06:00]  the one to 10 I feel like what's the difference between like six and seven. Right? Like to me, there's like not really a difference. Like, how well did I do on this scale? Six or seven is kind of the same thing. Whereas in the scale of negative two to positive two, a zero is actually meeting the expectations. A one is doing better than that. A two is doing like amazing. Negative one is like, I did not meet the expectations and a negative two is like, I totally blew it. And so that scale allows a lot of my students a little bit more. One, wiggle room, right? Because they're not like judging between a six and a seven. But two, they're like, well, now I know I didn't actually do the thing I was supposed to do, right? Like, or what I did was unexpected. Um, other people might think that the, their perspective is that was a little strange and maybe that's okay for them. Like that, that's, maybe that's fine for them, but it, it is a, an actual skill to be able to go back [01:07:00]  and self reflect and then use the self advocacy to say like, Hey, next time I needed X, Y, Z, right? Or I would prefer if you said something like this to me, whatever it is, I'm in this social dilemma. So the last part is when to refer. Cory Clark:  Well, we've covered a lot of this. I don't want to kind of go too far into it that we've already done, but it's just really important to know your area. Like I said before, to know how to know where to refer. Um, for things like when the anxiety is getting too heavy to really, you know, carry out sessions. Um, when trauma has been noted that you didn't know before, you know, early on. A lot of times you don't know, um, when you start services with someone and then it comes up, you know, throughout. Um, or if, you know, someone's behavior is, you know, Getting to the point where they're so aggressive or disruptive at school or at home to where it becomes unsafe to, you know, to, um, [01:08:00]  do therapy services or, um, you know, just hearing about unsafe things at home. Um, it's important to refer. So, you know, connecting with local counselors in your area is important. Um, creating relationships, creating a referral list if your practice doesn't already have one. Um, of where, you know, you can refer to where they won't be turned away, right? And it's really hard, um, nowadays to, to. To find places that are accepting, uh, new, new clients, uh, that see kids, aren't  Kate Melillo:  full.  Cory Clark:  Yeah, they accept the insurances they need, you know, so it's important to know what's available, what's possible in your area.  Kate Grandbois:  You've shared so much with us. I could talk to you for a whole other hour. I already, I'm already thinking of all of these additional questions about how to approach this in a school environment, about, but we don't have time to go to any of these, these Avenues that my brain maybe that's my executive functioning really failing me here wanting to go off on all these tangents You've just shared so much helpful [01:09:00]  information And reaffirmed so much of of my own personal perspectives of how important counseling is So much of what we've said on this show in the past in our last few minutes Do you for? For the SLP or the special educator who's listening who might be somewhat familiar or somewhat new to this general area, do you have any, you know, final thoughts or words of, of, um, words of wisdom and, and suggestions for next steps?  Kate Melillo:  I, so I think the biggest takeaway here is to, for SLPs to like, I challenge you kind of to go into your next session and change the way you think about how you deliver the session, right? Like, change your mindset around like how you're going to approach those goals today and make it more about the relationship with that student and not about the goals. Um, because that that's really like the crux of what we're saying [01:10:00]  here, because I think you'll see things like the executive functioning stuff like bubble up, like, you'll see things like the other goals, um, come into, you know, in front of your face. If you just made it about the kid and the relationship that you have with them, which I think is definitely. A mindset shift. Um, it's not the way that everybody approaches their session. And yes, it could be your, you know, maybe it's preference, but the evidence actually does lean this way. Um, and a lot of new research and social skills and social emotional learning. So that would be my challenge to everybody after today.  Kate Grandbois:  Thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate all of your time. I have learned so much. Um, I'm sure our listeners have too. Everything that you've mentioned today will be in the show notes. So anybody who's listening while they're driving, walking, whatever, what have you, um, all of those links will be there. Thank you again so much for your time. This was really awesome. Thanks for having us. Thank you. [01:11:00]   Amy Wonkka:  Thank you.  Kate Grandbois:  Thank you so much for joining us in today's episode, as always, you can use this episode for ASHA CEUs. You can also potentially use this episode for other credits, depending on the regulations of your governing body. To determine if this episode will count towards professional development in your area of study. Please check in with your governing bodies or you can go to our website, www.slpnerdcast.com all of the references and information listed throughout the course of the episode will be listed in the show notes. And as always, if you have any questions, please email us at info@slpnerdcast.com thank you so much for joining us and we hope to welcome you back here again soon. .

This transcript is made available as a course accommodation for and is supplementary to this episode / course. This transcript is not intended to be used in place of the podcast episode with the exception of course accommodation. Please note: This transcript was created by robots. We do our best to proof read but there is always a chance we miss something. Find a typo? Email us anytime . [00:00:00]   Intro Um, jobs. I mean, there aren't. Too many jobs where there's no reading required. So, um, civic life, you know, understanding different opportunities for your community and things like that. I mean, literacy is very much embedded into all of that, even navigating your way across town. Um, so it, it's really hard to over estimate how important literacy is for someone's daily life. Kate Grandbois:  Welcome to SLP nerd cast your favorite professional resource for evidence based practice in speech, language pathology. I'm Kate grant wa and I'm Amy  Amy Wonkka:  Wonka. We are both speech, language pathologists working in the field and co-founders of SLP nerd cast. Each  Kate Grandbois:  episode of this podcast is a course offered for ashes EU. Our podcast audio courses are here to help you level up your knowledge and earn those professional development hours that you need. This course. Plus the corresponding short post test is equal to one certificate of attendance to earn CEUs today and take the post test. After this session, follow the link provided in the show notes or head to SLP ncast.com . Amy Wonkka:  Before we get started one quick, disclaimer, our courses are not meant to replace clinical. We do not endorse products, procedures, or other services mentioned by our guests, unless otherwise  Kate Grandbois:  specified. We hope you enjoy  Announcer:  the course. Are you an SLP related [00:01:00]  professional? The SLP nerd cast unlimited subscription gives members access to over 100 courses, offered for ashes, EU, and certificates of attendance. With SLP nerd cast membership, you can earn unlimited EU all year at any time. SLP nerd cast courses are unique evidence based with a focus on information that is useful. When you join SLP nerd cast as a member, you'll have access to the best online platform for continuing education and speech and language pathology. Sponsor 1 Announcer:  Join as a member today and save 10% using code nerd caster 10. A link for membership is in the show notes This episode is brought to you in part by listeners like you and by our corporate sponsor, Ventris Learning. Ventris Learning's culturally and linguistically responsive teaching resources help speech language pathologists, reading specialists, and teachers more effectively meet the [00:02:00]  assessment and instructional needs of all students, including those who tend to become underserved in language and or literacy. To learn more, visit www.ventrislearning.com . Kate Grandbois:  Welcome to SLP Nerdcast. We are very excited to welcome our two guests today to talk about a topic that is very near and dear to our hearts. We are here to discuss literacy and AAC with two expert guests, Tim DeLuca and Christine Holyfield. Welcome Tim and Christine. Thanks.  Tim Deluca:  Thanks for having us.  Amy Wonkka:  We're really excited to have you here. Um, and today you're going to talk to us about AAC and literacy development, but before we get started, can you please tell us just a little bit about yourselves? Christine Holyfield:  Yeah. Hi, I'm Christine Holyfield. I'm an associate professor of communication sciences and disorders at the University of Arkansas, and I do research and teach classes on augmentative and alternative [00:03:00]  communication and language learning, literacy learning, social communication development for individuals with developmental disabilities of all ages, including individuals with developmental disabilities who are, you know, In the emerging stages of building symbolic communication or really emerging literacy skills. Tim Deluca:  And my name is Tim DeLuca. Um, I just finished my PhD this past year, um, beginning a new position as an assistant professor at UMass Amherst in the fall. Super excited about that. Um, I had the great pleasure of working with and learning from the phenomenal Amy Blanca, Back in my clinical days, which, um, really got me interested in this topic of AAC and literacy, we did a lot of work related to supporting our AAC users within our school district to access a lot of different reading skills. My PhD work so far has been thinking a lot about systems in schools, how we can leverage things like interprofessional practice and collaboration in order to support all learners in [00:04:00]  gaining different language and literacy skills. I've had the chance to meet Christine working on different projects that we'll talk with you about later today, but really thinking about. Um, emerging communicators and how we can support those emerging communicators and accessing literacy skills, which I think will hopefully make the case for today is an extremely important direction for people like speech pathologists, educators, caretakers, and obviously as users to be thinking about in the future. Kate Grandbois:  I love that shout out to Amy. That was so nice. And to second that, she also taught me everything I know. So here's a little shout out to my co host, my, my brilliant partner in crime. Um, and that's, that was very nice. And it's really lovely to meet both of you. I'm very excited to hear about the projects that you all are working on. Um, and before we get into the exciting stuff, I do need to read our learning objectives and disclosures. I will try to get that. Let's get through that as quickly as I can. Learning objective number one, describe why literacy is important for all, especially [00:05:00]  AAC users. Learning objective number two, describe the two primary components of reading comprehension. Learning objective number three, describe three strategies to support word identification for AAC users. Learning objective number four, describe three strategies to support language comprehension for AAC users. And learning objective number five, list strategies to embed literacy supports within AAC users systems. Disclosures. Tim's Financial Disclosures. Tim is an employee at a university, Tim's Non-Financial Disclosures. Tim has no non-financial relationships to disclose Christine's financial disclosures. Christine is an employee at a university, Christine's non-financial disclosures. Christine has no non-financial relationships to dis. Kate, that's me. I'm the owner and founder of Grand Bois Therapy Consulting, LLC, and co founder of SLP Nerdcast. My non financial disclosures, I'm a member of ASHA SIG 12, and I also serve on the AAC Advisory Group for Massachusetts Advocates for Children. Amy Wonkka:   [00:06:00]  Amy, that's me. You guys, like, Really filled my bucket. Also. Thank you. Um, my financial disclosures that I'm an employee of a public school system and co founder of SLP Nerdcast and my non financial disclosures are that I am a member of ASHA, Special Interest Group 12, um, and I also participate in the AAC Advisory Group for Massachusetts Advocates for Children. All right, we've made it through all of the disclosures and learning objectives, all of those bits. Now we're on to the good stuff. Um, Tim and Christine, why don't you start us off by introducing yourself? Just talking to us a little bit about literacy. What is literacy? What is incorporated in that when we talk about literacy skills? Tim Deluca:  Great. So, literacy, big word, means a lot of things to a lot of different people. Also, that word reading, right? We hear the word reading a lot, but that's another word that can hold a lot of different meanings depending on how we're using it, who we're using the word with. So, what is literacy? When I first learned about reading, one of the ways it was explained to me [00:07:00]  was through a quick story where, um, a grandfather can't quite see books anymore, uh, really loves reading German literature, and his grandson got in trouble, had to go help him out, and so the grandson was a pretty good, fluent decoder. So Never understood German, but was able to go and kind of decode and say the words out loud from the German books to his grandfather. And then the question is, which one of those two people, the grandchild or the grandfather, which one of those two is reading? Does anybody have any, like, feels, thoughts?  Amy Wonkka:  I love this question. Kate Grandbois:  I'm grimacing. I don't know.  Amy Wonkka:  I, I think if I had to guess, I would say the grandfather is reading because the grandfather's interacting with, interacting with the content, whereas the grandson is decoding, but that's part of reading. I don't know. Feels like a trick question. It is a trick question. Nailed  Tim Deluca:  it. Trick. Exactly. Wonderful. So, but that's, that's what's important, right? Because when we say [00:08:00]  reading, we're often meaning a lot of different little skills that have to come together in a meaningful way to really not only see and understand, um, see and be able to produce the words that are in text, but also understand the words meaning, understand how those words go together in the text, and then, you know, Use our background knowledge, activate all that information to really make sense of the text as a whole. So when we say reading, and when we're thinking about teaching anybody how to read, we're not just thinking about how to identify words, but we're also thinking about that overall language comprehension piece.  Amy Wonkka:  So just to say back to you, when we're talking about reading, when we're talking about literacy, we're really talking about the process of integrating multiple different types of skills all together. Tim Deluca:  Perfect. Yeah. And the simplest way to think about this is often called the simple view of reading. Came out in the 80s, used all the time in research still, and it's the idea that reading comprehension is often what we're aiming for when we're thinking about educating individuals. Reading comprehension is that distal measure that we're often looking for in [00:09:00]  a lot of our assessments in education. And reading comprehension is just the product of our ability to identify words and our ability to comprehend language. Right, so we need both of those things to be intact in order to comprehend text. Simple view. Simple way of thinking about it, but there's more that we'll, I'm sure, dive into today. Amy Wonkka:  Okay, so why is literacy important, especially for AAC users? Why is this skill such an important skill and something that we should be, as speech pathologists or special educators, um, why, why should we make that a primary  Announcer:  focus? So  Tim Deluca:  literacy so important because one thing I just mentioned is a lot of times when we're thinking about educational progress, we're measuring reading comprehension, regardless of the content area we're testing students in, whether it be science, social studies, math, word problems, right? A lot of times, reading comprehension is the thing we have to be able to do to show what we know. Um, and then when we think about AAC users and thinking about the modality of communication, um, if we're using symbolic learning, Systems with that are maybe more icon picture [00:10:00]  based. There's only a certain set of things that we're able to stay with those systems. But if we have access to generative text and are able to spell decode fluently, then that expands what we're able to communicate tremendously. Christine Holyfield:  Yeah. And just to add, um, about the importance of literacy. I mean, Tim, Tim talked about the academic piece, which is so important. And we talk about, um, Tim, correct me if I'm wrong, but in third grade, the shift that occurs from learning to read to reading to learn. And so if you're not someone who has functional literacy skills, you're missing out on a lot of learning opportunities that other people are getting. Through reading books and reading materials in in school. So that education piece is huge. Um, there's also a social component. I mean, starting from a pretty young age. Now kids text each other. Adults text each other all the time. [00:11:00]  Social media is often not all social media, but a lot of social media has text components to it. And then, as Tim said, you know, for individuals who use AAC, it's got that added potential of allowing them to communicate anything that's in their head with 26 letters. And that means that if the SLP doesn't know what they want to say and hasn't programmed a word on their device yet, that's okay [00:12:00]  because they're able to type it out. Kate Grandbois:  I feel like we can't really have a conversation about the importance of this without also acknowledging the barriers in terms of the communication partners or individuals within certain settings being very dismissive. So, for example, saying things like, they're not ready for that, or particularly for a complex communicator or an emerging communicator they're not going to read, and kind of automatically placing that that ceiling. What can you tell us about how to combat that? I think our field has come a really long way in shifting away from that mentality, but I'm not sure that other, other domains have, have, have shifted away from that. What can you tell our listeners about, um, about how we can kind of push, push back against that expectation or that, that ceiling? Christine Holyfield:  Thank [00:13:00]  you for asking that, Kate. I think that's so important. And, um, I can definitely relate to that. I was an SLP in schools, and I remember adding literacy goals, um, to, for the students on my caseload. And I remember a parent saying to me, You know, why are, why are you working on this? My son's never going to read. And that parent got that message from someone, right? Someone before me in the school system, most likely. And so, um, it's, it's a huge barrier and adults who use AAC, who are literate, they talk about it as being a huge barrier, um, that they had, had Based it had to overcome. So it's a really important thing for us all to think about in some ways. I think there's probably potential to do research in this area to find the best answer to your question, Kate. And, um, we need that research to figure out how do we change people's attitudes? How do [00:14:00]  we raise expectations? One of my favorite things to say when I worked in the schools was, well, let me just try it. And. A lot of times, um, I would try and people would see success and when success happened, it could kind of show people what might be possible in terms of someone learning literacy skills and expectations can start to shift. Um, I mean, that's just one small example. I think another one is. For everyone to truly understand and Tim, you can speak more to this, but what is literacy because it includes the language comprehension piece. So if you're working on language comprehension, you're making strides towards literacy and, um, why not try some of the word identification side of things as well.  Tim Deluca:  I love that you said that piece. I think that's so important and so relevant that we're thinking about both parts of that simple view of reading, [00:15:00]  not just the word decoding, but also the reading cover or the language comprehension piece. Um, I think, I'm thinking back to the beginning of my clinical career, and I was working in a school, um, not with anybody here, don't try to figure it out, um, but working in a school where, where students were just having literacy goals removed from IEPs because educators weren't sure quite how to teach, especially the word identification piece, um, and then I realized, oh my gosh, somebody's gotta do something, and then I realized, Oh, no, I'm the one who's supposed to be doing something and I realized I had no idea how to teach reading, um, based on the time I had gone to school and what my clinical training looked like. I never really learned about the whole picture of reading, the many different skills we're putting together to help support fluent reading comprehension. And so. I had to do a lot of extra work to think about how I could, um, what, what typical instruction for word and word reading looks like, and then thinking about, okay, I have [00:16:00]  these students in front of me who access these modalities of communication, have these different preferences, interests, how can I take what I know about what typically works for word reading, and how can I adapt that to meet these students where they are? Um, and I think. One of the big takeaways that we could always go to is in AAC so far there's much more research in the language comprehension piece of reading development than there is in the word reading piece. Uh, but we can take what we already know and adapt what we already know for Our learners who might be AAC users. And so the big takeaways from a whole whole large body of research across multiple fields right now related to word identification or word reading is the idea that we need to be systematic and explicit within our instructions. So not just trying something for a little bit. If it doesn't stick. Moving on, but rather really sticking with teaching certain skills and slowly building those skills together in meaningful ways, having a really clear scope and sequence of how we're moving through. Um, and also having a really clear way that we're monitoring progress in a way [00:17:00]  that's valid for our learners. If we think about working in a typical public school system, we're probably, we probably have access to a lot of, uh, typical tier one General education classroom instruction, and we probably have access to progress monitoring tools related to either that curriculum or just general progress monitoring and we're greeting. However, if we use those same tools for users, the users might not be able to show what they know with those tools. So how can we adapt those tools? How can we think about building our own curriculum based measures to think about how students are progressing through? Our systematic and explicit instruction to gain access to that word identification, word reading piece. Amy Wonkka:  I think you, you both have referenced a little bit the interconnection too, between language comprehension and reading comprehension. So I don't know if you want to talk to us a little bit about two primary components of reading comprehension, but maybe also connect that back to some of the more traditional language comprehension approaches that SLPs may be [00:18:00]  feeling more familiar with. So maybe making that connection, um, for listeners.  Tim Deluca:  Perfect. So I love that you, you talked about this when we think about the language comprehension piece of the simple view of reading, we can think about that Blum and Leahy model that we all use. No one use all the time is SLP is right of form content use of those areas of language. Um, if let's start with content, teaching vocabulary, teaching semantics, there are a lot of different strategies, curriculum, um, and specific protocols that exist to teach different vocab. Um, and I think what's important for our users, maybe individuals who have complex communication needs, maybe individuals who are, um, Who have neurodiverse neurodiverse identities, thinking about how we can leverage their interests and what their background knowledge already is in order to make connections to learn new words in a deeper way, so I think a lot of times, especially in special education, we get really stuck and creating IEP objectives related to vocabulary and saying the students going to [00:19:00]  learn this many words and then they learn that many words and we move on, but we're not really being thoughtful around the depth of vocabulary knowledge as well as thinking about it. generalization of that vocabulary knowledge. So when we're teaching the meaning of a word, we're not just teaching one meaning of the word, we're maybe thinking about how it's used across different contexts. We're connecting it to content knowledge that that individual can see this word in certain content and understand what it means within a science unit versus within a social studies unit. And, um, we're revisiting that word over and over and over. So it's not just a one and done thing, but really something where we're building depth of that vocab, right? So Taking those traditional goals that we always use, taking those traditional teaching methods of thinking about the word and its definition, but then using it across multiple different opportunities in multiple ways, um, thinking about how it could be used as a noun versus a verb, right? Uh, building that, that meta linguistic knowledge, which for some of our users is not quite where they [00:20:00]  are yet, but we can still provide opportunities, still provide models and access to those types of learning opportunities. From there, we can think about our morphosyntax, right? So if we're teaching word identification, the phonics or decoding piece, we can also, along in the same lesson, teach, hey look, here's a prefix, here's what that prefix means. So we practice sequencing the sounds, then we connect it to meaning, so we learned a little about morphology, we learned a little bit about semantics, we learned a little bit about decoding, and we did it all in a single lesson. Then we connect that into a sentence and thinking about how that prefix is being used in a sentence, how it can connect to some of our different vocab words that we just practiced for our science unit the day before. So really thinking about integrating our instruction so that students are getting multiple opportunities to build breadth and depth of vocab and seeing vocab, not just in individual as individual words that [00:21:00]  are being used to show mastery towards an IP objective. But really thinking about aligning. Our instruction to the curriculum and, um, aligning across different content areas across the day. I don't know if I even really answered your question there, Amy, but hopefully we're getting in the right direction.  Amy Wonkka:  No, I think you did. I think that you're building a base, right? We're building a base when we're thinking about our vocabulary intervention and ways that we can connect that to literacy. Um, and then I think the other piece of the question, because I asked you like a multi part question, so. Sorry, was just thinking about what are those primary components of reading comprehension, right? So what are the big pieces that a student needs to have in place for that reading comprehension to happen?  Tim Deluca:  Perfect. So thinking again about the language comprehension, we just said form, content, use. All are going to be relevant. Um, we've talked a little bit about form. We've talked a little bit about content so far. Use, right? So when we're thinking, we've touched upon this when we think about words [00:22:00]  with multiple meanings or words that can be used as both nouns and verbs. That's part of language use as well. How we're being flexible with how we're understanding how words are used within different sentence structures within different content areas. That is, um, maybe something that When we're writing IEP objectives, when we're working with students, we're not always zooming out and thinking about the big picture of how each of those three areas of language are working together, or how we can integrate them within our lessons. But in order for somebody to achieve reading comprehension, we need to be flexibly thinking about language, thinking about how it's being used, meaning how it's, how it looks within a sentence, in order to really understand it. So, um, Building off that simple view of reading there, there are always researchers proposing new models for how we're thinking about reading comprehension, how complex it is. One of my favorites is, is a kind of a newer summary of a lot of the emerging research by Duke and Cartwright. It's [00:23:00]  called the active view of reading, and they have a ton of podcast episodes. I think it's a free access article, so it's a really nice usable tool, regardless if you're a clinician researcher, however you're coming to this topic. But they break down that language comprehension piece a little bit more, thinking about really putting form, content, and use together. And they also add something to the model called bridging processes. Um, and again, some of the research that they're pulling from here is more emerging, not as much evidence that this accounts for a lot of the variability in reading comprehension, but some promising areas, right? And one of those bridging processes is a super long phrase, uh, grapho, phonological, semantic, cognitive flexibility. So too many things, right? But if we break it apart, grapho, the actual letters we're seeing, phonological, how those letters might sound different depending on the sequence that they're being put in, right? So if we put an s versus an sh, s is not saying anymore, it's saying sh, right? Um, so [00:24:00]  grapho, phonological, and then semantic, thinking about how a word like wound how it's gonna maybe look the same graph Graphenically graphologically, what word, whatever word I should use there, right? And then how the phonology of the word might be a little bit different. And that phonology maps onto different semantic meanings. We have to be cognitively flexible to think through. All of those pieces together to really understand what we're reading. So that's a lot for us as educators to be thinking of, and that can be a little bit daunting, right, to hear all of this and think, how am I ever going to account for this? But what we can do is just add on little by little. So maybe you feel really confident. You guys always talk about, um, your scope of competence, right? So maybe your scope of competence is super strong in, in vocab instruction. So how can I now add or embed some more morphosyntax into my vocab instruction? How can I embed some phonology into my, into my, uh, vocab instruction, right? So start with little [00:25:00]  pieces and work your way up to thinking about how all of these skills are becoming aligned to support that end goal of reading comprehension. Amy Wonkka:  I think that that's such, such a nice way to think about it though, Tim, like you said, I think, you know, think about what feels comfortable for you, what you're already doing that feels comfortable, that's working and then how you can add one small piece into it. I think that that's like, Always helpful because we, we do these podcasts and we talk to experts like you guys, and it feels sometimes like it's just so much, it's so much and it's kind of overwhelming and you get this sort of like paralysis around, like not quite knowing where to start. Um, I do feel like, you know, for me, I could say vocabulary was always an area where I felt a little bit more comfortable working with that intervention. Um, some of the other pieces, like word recognition, I think have been an area that for me has felt like I need to learn more about, um, And I don't know if you guys want to talk a little bit about that. So talking about some of that word identification, I know, Tim, I saw you speak at a [00:26:00]  conference, um, I don't know, maybe it was a year ago, but I felt like you had talked about some apps and some different strategies that you were using to help support a C user. And some of them like were. Pretty emergent communicators in, in this area of word identification. So maybe you guys could talk to us a little bit just about how we could get started there.  Tim Deluca:  Yeah. So I actually recently joined on to projects that Christine's been working on for a number of years related to supporting these word identification pieces for emerging communicators. So I'll, I'll hand it off to Christine to share a little bit about some pretty cool work. Christine Holyfield:  Yeah, so I mean, I think and relating it back to these two components of the simple view of reading. I think it's It's reasonable for us to say that for every student or, um, you know, client, there should be at least one goal, of course, hopefully more related to the language comprehension side of things. And then at least [00:27:00]  one goal related to the word identification side of things as well. And, um, we talked about the attitudes at the beginning that. Maybe we shouldn't be focusing on word identification with someone who's more emerging on the language side of things. Maybe we should be focusing on language and probably we should be focusing on language, but that doesn't mean we can't add in opportunities for the word identification learning and and those two goals don't have to be competing goals. They can be complementary goals. Um, so, One thing, um, that we've worked on related to that is making a a c systems more supportive of literacy, um, through use of the a a C systems. And I wanna be very clear that, um, Tim mentioned that we need explicit systematic instruction, and that's absolutely true. We should, um, not just hope that [00:28:00]  someone learns, identify words, we need to make sure that they have. Instruction that's appropriate for them with opportunities to participate that are accessible to them. Um, if we truly want to build. Word identification, but, uh, why not have increased opportunities through a so a lot of the work, um, related to that has been. Tim and I work together on the Rehabilitation Engineering Research Center on Augmentative and Alternative Communication. And that's a research center housed at Penn State University led by Drs. Leighton McNaughton. And for, uh, close to a decade now, there's been work making AAC devices more supportive of literacy. So one example of that, um, is Rehabilitation This class of features called the transition to literacy features and the idea is just to promote extra [00:29:00]  opportunities for learning. And so, um, one of those is a site word feature. And with that feature, uh, someone can. Select on their AAC device, whatever they would typically say. And in addition to the voice output coming out text output is dynamically displayed along with it. And so Tim can explain this better than me, but someone's, um, you know, more likely to learn to recognize a word if they're seeing, um, the orthography. Orthography of the word paired with the phonology of the word being sounded out, or it being spoken aloud. Um, and there's been a number of research studies with children and adults with developmental disabilities, including down syndrome, autism, cerebral palsy, and most of the participants do increase their word. their recognition of words through use of the feature with [00:30:00]  interacting with researchers, um, using the AAC technology. Another version or another feature of the transition to literacy suite that's newer is the, a feature that supports decoding as well. So, um, Tim touched on this a little, but in word identification, there's sort of. Different ways to recognize the word. But if you're learning to be functionally literate, you have to learn to sound out words. And the T12 decoding feature is designed to support that by when you make a selection, not only does the text come up while the whole word is spoken, but it sounds out the word. So if the child were to select cat while reading a Pete the Cat book, the AAC device would say. Cat and the letters corresponding to those sounds would be illuminated, um, as the AC device was sounding that out. [00:31:00]  So that's a newer feature that still, um, we're still doing a lot of research on, but it's just an exam. These are just examples of ways that AC technology can be set up to support literacy. Another example is, um, I've done some research, um, around picture symbols versus text learning and, um, in the field of AAC, you all know we love picture symbols and it's kind of the default for every word for everyone all the time. And, um, there really isn't research to support that. And we have More research coming out to set to show that there might be other representations that might be more meaningful to someone. So if we're thinking about the language comprehension side of piece side of things, um, color photos are very powerful  Announcer:  representation. Christine Holyfield:  So nowadays with AC devices or tablets or [00:32:00]  phones all having on board cameras and with Google image search options, there's really not a reason not to use color photo representations for those high meaning, uh, high image ability words. We know that. Children who are learning language might be more likely to find meaning from those photos than from the picture symbols. And there's some emerging research, um, I've done one study and a colleague of mine, Lorne Marie Pope, has done another to show that, uh, for low imageability words, so words that are more abstract, things like go or want or, Come, um, these words, um, the research, the limited research we have shows that children don't learn the picture symbols for those words any quicker than they learned the text for those words. And so I feel very strongly that if, if we have to teach a representation, right, if it's [00:33:00]  not just going to be transparent to the person and we have to spend time in a session teaching them what that representation is. Why not teach them the orthographic representation? Because, as we talked about, that's a representation that they'll see all throughout. Life. Um, it's text is everywhere versus a symbol on an AAC device that's abstract and we spend time teaching and then it doesn't even help them if they decide to use a new app in the future and they, and it has a different symbol set. Kate Grandbois:  That makes so much sense. I mean, you know, thinking about what. Providing individualized instruction is like, right, we're all, we have limited resources, we have limited time. So we need to be putting our instruction to where it counts most. And if, if it is more meaningful to a learner to have the orthographic representation, to have that sight word, then let's teach that instead of these two random [00:34:00]  squiggly lines with a dot on it, or whatever it is. So that makes a lot of sense to me. Amy Wonkka:  It also makes me, this is sort of like outside of the scope, so feel free to shut down this question, but it does make me think about, I've often gotten a lot of questions about picture supported text and whether, you know, using something that creates a long line of symbolated text, should I be putting that symbolated text into the customized books that I'm creating for my students? Or is it better if I Print out this recipe using symbolated text versus regular text. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that or any, um, information from the research that would help guide somebody as a clinician who's sort of being asked those types of questions.  Christine Holyfield:  Tim can probably answer this more on the literacy side, but my guess is if you're trying to help someone become literate, maybe not. Um, but I think, again, going back to the individual, um, side of things, That it's within the realm of possibility that someone has already learned those [00:35:00]  picture symbols, right? And they've not yet learned to read. And if that's the case, like they've gotten instruction in those symbols and they haven't gotten instruction in the, in orthography, then perhaps that might be useful for someone, right? Where they can recognize this picture symbols that they've been taught. Um, again, we would never want to You know, not provide someone access to understanding if if these are symbols that are already meaningful to them. Um, I don't know of any research that shows that that's a helpful approach. Um, It's possible that that research is out there, but outside of the field of AC, because honestly, if it's outside of the field of AC, I don't know it very well. Um, Tim, I don't know if you know more.  Tim Deluca:  No, I totally agree with everything you said, Christine. I think what I always go back to is what's my goal within an activity, right? So, [00:36:00]  if I'm working clinically with somebody, what is my goal here? Am I hoping to provide opportunities for decoding? That I'm not going to have. Those images that might help the individual, quote unquote, guess what the word, the orthography is there. If my goal is for somebody to demonstrate comprehension, and I know that they have a certain level of language comprehension, a certain level of orthographic knowledge, then I'm going to adapt that activity to meet them where they're at. So if they could show me what they can do related to that, integrated skill of reading comprehension. So that's why it's so important to understand these component skills that go into reading comprehension, so that we can be prescriptive with how we're adapting lessons and activities, how we're providing instruction for learners. Christine touched on something earlier that I don't feel like I was clear about when I was thinking about that word identification part of reading comprehension, the simple view of reading. And it's the idea that, um, I think a lot of commercially available curricula for AAC users or for individuals who have limited [00:37:00]  access to verbal communication or speech, a lot of those curricula do a lot of whole word instruction where students are getting multiple repetitions of seeing a word and hearing the production of that word. And what we talk about there is that that is the skill of word identification, right? It's being able to map sounds. onto the orthography of a word. And that is in of itself a skill that can support reading comprehension. It is word identification. But what we see is that for, um, if that's the only form of instruction you're getting, if you're not learning the code, the phonics code of how Sounds and symbols can be put together within a word to generate novel words so that you can spell words independently in the future. You're probably, the individual getting that instruction is probably not going to progress past just being able to identify these whole words that they're being shown over and over and over. We're not seeing generalization of that skill into fluent. Reading, which therefore doesn't allow us to support that [00:38:00]  individual in developing that reading comprehension skill. So I think it's easy. A lot of times to take these out of in the box or out of the box curriculum and implement them. But we have to think about how, um, what we might expect is outcomes for that type of instruction, and we would probably expect that those outcomes would be fairly limited in supporting future independence for that. That individual so understand the components understand how we have to. Speech. Systematic. Explicitly. phonic skills, if our goal is to support fluent decoding and fluent reading in the future. Announcer:  And that  Tim Deluca:  eventually will help word identification. So that all comes together, we build our orthographic memory after we see and understand the code a bunch of times. So it does help us get to that more quick, accurate, recognition of words.  Amy Wonkka:  I don't know if you want to talk to us a little bit about what that might look like. So for those of us who do work in [00:39:00]  schools, we might be more familiar, um, with some of the curricula. I'm thinking of things that might be used in the general education classroom in like kindergarten, first grade, and to, to work on some of those, um, decoding and encoding skills, right? So not just that sight word identification. And a lot of that involves like Call and response. And so I think that that is one area that becomes really complicated for AAC users and the people who are trying to support them in learning to read, because it can be confusing to think about how to bypass that element that seems like such an ingrained piece of that instruction in gen ed. Tim Deluca:  Love it. So there are some curricula that are directly related to AAC. Um, and I'm going to let Christine talk about that. But before we even get there, if we're thinking about, I'm in a school, I don't have access to any materials other than what's happening in the Gen Ed classroom, we'll go back to that set framework, right? That common assistive tech framework of thinking about who is [00:40:00]  my learner, what is the task that they have to do, and what are the tools I have available, and what is the environment that it's happening in. A little out of order there, but we're all on the same page. And thinking about, okay, if I know this individual can't do that call and response piece, they have an AAC system, that AAC system probably has a phonics keyboard on it that's going to allow them to participate. in a way that matches their modality of communication. Perhaps they don't have that. Perhaps we're then just having to start with demonstrating knowledge through receptive opportunities. So we're practicing the sound,  Announcer:  um,  Tim Deluca:  and they're shown a number of, of graphemes and they have to choose the grapheme that corresponds to the sound. It looks different. It doesn't demonstrate that expressive knowledge as quickly, but it's our starting point. It's using what we have and it's beginning to build those important phonics skills. And I think the other positive thing we could take away from what's in general ed is that a lot of times there is a specific scope and sequence of instruction. [00:41:00]   So it gives us that really great place to anchor our work and to make sure that we're monitoring progress and then adapting when students are not making progress and thinking about, am I measuring their progress in a way that's valid for that individual? They can't call and respond. I've worked with teams that are like, well, they're not making progress. I'm like, well, how are you seeing if they make progress? And they're. Like, they can't read the word, of course, right, so we have, we have to think about giving access to tools that are going to allow the individual to demonstrate what they know. Christine Holyfield:  Yeah, it's really important, you know, when we're We need to be able to measure progress meaningfully if we're going to teach someone and, you know, um, support them down a path toward literacy and, um, that I think I agree to my think that's a gap really in what's available. And so, um, people, you know, don't never really learned how to make those adaptations and so they're [00:42:00]  not making those adaptations and. Um, you know, that's, that's more work that we have to do on the pre service and service training and even on the research side of things. But, um, the what, uh, the way Tim described, you know, providing visual options. For responses is typically what researchers have done. Um, when researchers have evaluated skills for word identification, such as letter sound correspondence or single word reading or, um, even encoding, so typically how, uh, researchers have approached it and what's been found to be, um, effective in the research is to provide. Choices a set field of choices for responses. So like Tim said, you know it rather than showing the, um, the orthography for a and then expecting the child to produce a were saying, ah, And the child's [00:43:00]  either pointing to the A or the M or the T or the P. Um, for example. Uh, same with words. You know, if we're wanting them, wanting to know if they can read the word cat. We're showing them the word cat in orthography. And we're showing, for example, For photos. Um, and this is where it can get really interesting to think about the photos that we show. Um, because for instance, you don't want a photo of a cat to be the only photo that starts with the letter or with the sound. So you might have cat as another option as well. Um, so you can think strategically about what the different choices are so that you can do an error analysis and. Be even more precise in the instruction that you're providing. Um, because, um, Tim could tell you better, but I know that good [00:44:00]  readers don't get. And so we don't want kids guessing based on the 1st letter. And so, if we're, if they always have the opportunity to just. Pick the word with the correct first letter sound. We're not really building them towards good reading with sounding out all the word. Um, an important thing to think about when you do that is to make sure you do some pre teaching of the representations that you use if you're. Um, so again, Tim said something really important earlier. He said, we always want to make sure. That we're measuring what we're think, what we think we're measuring. And we want to make sure that we're measuring the specific literacy skill that we're testing. So if I'm trying to test if they can read the word truck. I don't want to show them a photo of maybe a truck that they wouldn't recognize or a truck that they might that to them, they might call a semi or a pickup [00:45:00]  or whatever. So, um, it's just as easy as. You know, labeling each picture before you are testing in this way. Um, you can even, if these are pictures you're going to use over and over again, you can even do some testing to make sure they recognize just the pictures on their own. And then when you go in to test the word by putting the word that they are paired with picture options, you know, that. It's not just that they don't see a picture of truck. It's that they're not reading that that word is truck. Tim Deluca:  I really appreciated that. I think the other thing we could think about too that I think Christina and I get us questions a lot is how much time we should be spending on this kind of instruction, right? So that's a really tricky thing because we know that a lot of students On caseload to our users might have a lot of different goals that they're hoping to target within a given day have a lot of different needs within a given day, and therefore, time is limited. So, the [00:46:00]  national reading panel, which. The report was published in the early 2000s, but the. Work there is still pretty relevant The recommendation there for emergent readers is that we're doing about 30 minutes of phonics instruction a day Um for really early readers, right and christine mentioned this earlier Are any ac users getting even close to that amount of word reading instruction? Probably not Um, and maybe that's not feasible right now, right? We have to find the balance that works within That individual's day, and we don't necessarily have the research for people who use AC for different reasons. The exact amount of time that they need for different skills. That's probably going to happen on individual basis, but we know what the general guidance is, and then we make adaptations based on the learner that we're working with the system that we're working within and also maybe thinking about how we can leverage other professionals. So if I'm the speech pathologist, I'm embedding some products opportunities within my Okay. Vocab and more person text [00:47:00]  lessons. If a special educator is working with them on word reading, they're embedding some of the language language comprehension pieces within their phonics instruction later that day. So kind of almost thinking about how we can double dip within services across the day to get that integration and alignment of knowledge building.  Christine Holyfield:  That's a really important point, Tim. I think collaboration is really critical here to make sure that students are getting the minutes that are required in literacy instruction for them to make progress because what we don't want to happen is. Um, to kind of create this self fulfilling prophecy where we don't give them that many opportunities to learn literacy because we don't think it's a good use of time. And then they don't learn literacy because they haven't been given enough opportunities. And, um, you know, it's just this Self fulfilling prophecy that really doesn't serve anybody. Um, and so collaborating is really important. And I remember when I was [00:48:00]  working in the schools, there were teachers who had set literacy blocks for a certain time of day. And I asked them, could I, um, work with you and help make it so that, you know, the four students in the room who use AAC can participate meaningfully in those literacy blocks as well. Or can I just have a table on the other side of the classroom and I'll just come in and I'll, um, do work at the same time, uh, that's been adapted. So, um, collaboration is, you know, I think that's an important piece of it. And I think it's an opportunity for us, um, to advocate as well. Um, for maybe this is a student who should have more minutes, uh, every week for services. And if we really want them to make progress in a timely manner. Tim Deluca:  One thing I think about there related to the more minutes, because I'm working with a lot of teams who are like, I don't have more minutes. And if you say that again. I [00:49:00]  Throwing hands. So the thing that we could think about when we're when we're coming to a team and we're saying, Hey, as a member of this team, I think this student needs more time to access this skill, really thinking about. I, this is my, my scope of competence. And here's also what my role can look like, what my time available is to teach this skill. But can it, just like you were saying, Christine, how can it then compliment the other things that are happening throughout the day? So that nobody needs to necessarily add minutes, add to their workload. Rather as educators, we're effectively sharing information, effectively sharing knowledge with one another. If we're putting those B grid minutes collaboration or, uh, a good minutes collaboration time on the grid. Like, how are we using that effectively to share our knowledge to make sure that our services are super aligned so that that student is getting the same language intervention or the same way of talking about [00:50:00]  skills, the same way of getting input about skills across multiple different professionals so that we're maximizing each individual's time with that learner. Christine Holyfield:  I know you're right, Tim. I, I'm a little idealistic on this, but I do think that SLP should feel confident in what they know about, um, what a student needs and. Um, you know, try to advocate in the sense of, you know, that might mean telling an administrator for me to effectively serve all this for us to effectively serve all the students in this school. I'm not enough, and it's our job to teach them to read teach them language do all these things. And we could do that job more effectively with more. So, um, I know that's not an easy thing and I know that there are a lot of people I'm sure who've tried that and heard too bad. But, um, I think we can try to advocate because [00:51:00]  Um, you know, it's right. Amy Wonkka:  I agree. We talk a lot on this show about like we get on soapboxes about the importance of advocating for better working conditions for ourselves and for our clients. Um, and while it may take years and years and years to have that conversation, and we may end up at a different workplace entirely where they have more open ears to hear our, to hear what we have to say. I think it's an important thing. Um, to state that, you know, it is, it is definitely something that we should, that we should make sure we don't back down from doing. Um, you both said so many things that I think were really helpful, uh, in terms of being thoughtful about just going back to, um, teaching some of those. those sound skills and how you might construct those tasks and being thoughtful about the materials that you're using so that you can do an error analysis, that you can really think about what patterns may be [00:52:00]  present, what error patterns might be present in your learner. Um, I wonder if there are similar examples that we can sort of picture as clinicians when that comes to language comprehension. So, um, How might we structure some of our comprehension interventions so that we're doing the same thing, right? We're not just showing this one picture and then the student learns, like, this is what I do when I see this one picture or this one string of text. What are some strategies that we could use as clinicians to sort of help support that language comprehension that are unique to students who are also using AAC? Tim Deluca:  That's such a good point. I think for a long time we were monitoring progress by having students read the same story, read quote unquote the same story over and over and over and asking them the same questions over and over and over and then teaching them specific responses and saying, hey look, they've moved up a level or whatever it might have been. Um, and we know that that is not a valid way of monitoring progress towards the skill of reading comprehension, but rather is just showing that the [00:53:00]  individual learned a response to a specific You ABA people know all about the words there. So, um, we really need to think about Again, I go back to this word alignment. When students are in school, our role as special educators is to support access to the curriculum. Um, and this is obviously going to look different for different learners, but if there is a science unit, this individual is interested in. That aspect of science. How can we provide a different short story each day that maybe has some of the phonics elements that we've been teaching, right? Maybe they're working on CBC, consonant, consonant words. How can we take what the class is reading about in science, maybe make a quick adaptation with AI now? These things are Not easy, but easier to at least get a starting point for how can we adapt so that they're getting access to the content knowledge of science. The topic they're interested in. They're motivated to learn about it. [00:54:00]  Um, and they're also getting practice with the word reading instruction. And then because it's an area of high interest, the individual maybe has some background knowledge of it, we're actually able to see, like, are they comprehending the new information we're providing in this text? So are they able to answer a question that reflects new knowledge presented in the text versus their background knowledge? Or Are they often answering questions in a way that shows that they're relying more heavily on their background knowledge rather than the new information provided in the text? That now gives us some prescriptive information about, okay, perhaps they decoded the words for me here, but the comprehension wasn't there, whether it be because of fluency, whether it be because they weren't thinking about the text, right? That, that monitoring we all have to do when we're reading to make sure we're making sense of what we're reading. Those might be why they're not demonstrating knowledge, or it could be because The fluency in the actual decoding the CBC words was more challenging, but that kind of integration, um, I think is [00:55:00]  becoming easier and easier with updated technology. But the big takeaways for me always are, how can I make sure it's high interest? And how can I make sure that there's motivation to participate in this activity? Because if somebody is not motivated, they're not learning, they're not gonna be able to show or demonstrate progress in that skill. Announcer:  And I think you said so much  Christine Holyfield:  important stuff in there. I agree. I think, um, you know, bringing in someone's interest is really important, particularly someone who has yet to really make meaning out of text at all. Um, we need to bring that meaning in somewhere for there to be a motivation to learn. And if there, if they have a favorite character from a TV show, then I make adapted books with that character. Holding all kinds of different, you know, CBC words that I can, you know, have them read book after book, uh, that's of interest to them. Um, even if the target words that they're working on might not be as exciting. Uh, I think also, [00:56:00]  you know, This can be an opportunity to collaborate with families as well to find out what is meaningful to them. What experiences have they've had, have they had that have been, um, you know, particularly impactful and providing opportunities for learning around those experiences. Um, For individuals who are really in the more emerging language learning stages, it's important to think about the words that they're hearing and and are meaningful to them most often. So, you know, we, everyone learns words by someone else saying those words and that being paired with a referent or an experience out in the world. And so. If we're trying to build up someone's language, the more, as Tim said, we can align the words we're working on with the words that they're more likely to be hearing and experiencing elsewhere. That's important. I can give [00:57:00]  a silly example, but, um, my sister, for some reason, decided to teach her, uh, daughter, um, The word pup instead of dog. Right? And so that's a silly example. But if I were at school and I was her SLP, I would never assume that she associates that picture with pup and not dog. Um, but that's just one example. But in general, you know, um, just like we talked about, uh, before. We want to make sure we're providing language that is giving someone the best opportunity to learn as possible. And a lot of that is going to be learned through individual assessment about  Announcer:  what's meaningful to them. Christine Holyfield:  Individualized assessment is really important to know for each student what type of input is most meaningful to them. So, there are some students who might, Have a bottleneck or barrier and understanding spoken input, but they [00:58:00]  understand input that scaffolded with visuals more effectively. So we want to make sure that they have the opportunity to learn language with those maximal support. Um, In the field of AAC, we talk about something called the input output disconnect, um, for communication language learning. So, for an individual who uses AAC, um, they're in this unique position for learning language where they're expected to express language one way and everyone else is Giving them language input through a different modality. Um, and so that's where things like aided input become really important to try to address that disconnect. So we're using the child's AC device when we're reading the books with them. Um, so that they're getting input. In a modality that matches their output and they have, um, more opportunities to learn language in that way. Amy Wonkka:  I I think that that [00:59:00]  is all really helpful to think about I know you've both mentioned Customized or adapted books and I think that that's something You know that can be so powerful because you can hook on to what's interesting for your student or what, what is just a life experience that they've had. Uh, I think about some of the early like A and B level readers and they're not particularly riveting texts, right? Like, like there's one page, there's an apple, it says apple, there's another page, it's a cup, it says cup. Um, so the idea of, you know, taking a character that they like and then putting those kind of mundane items like in the book with this fun character is, is just a really nice example. I don't know if you had any other tips for SLPs who might be hearing this and thinking, oh my gosh, I would love to make some adapted books for my student. What are some things that that SLP should be thinking about?  Tim Deluca:  First and foremost, thinking about the goal of those adapted books. Is it to build language [01:00:00]  comprehension knowledge or is it to build opportunity for practice for word reading? So if it's Opportunity to build practice for word reading, making sure that the words like we see in those level texts, a lot of times like apple is not a word that there's a closed consonant or closed syllable and then a consonant l e syllable in there. That's not a, uh, early in our phonics scope and sequence typically, right? So that would not be a good word if our goal was to practice these early phonics skills. So making sure whatever adapted text we're we're building, if we're expecting the student to be the one decoding, making sure the things that they're supposed to decode match what they've been taught so far. Otherwise we're just asking them to guess and good readers don't guess.  Christine Holyfield:  Yeah, so I think one strategy I've used, you know, if their favorite character has a name that's It's going to be difficult to decode, and I don't know why I'm struggling to think of one right now. Um, but, you know, that character might be up [01:01:00]  here on every page of an adapted book, but the last word on every page that they're expected to read is a CVC word, and that, you know, like I said, that character might be holding a cup, or, you know, one of those boring words that, um, they're trying to, you know, build in their decoding repertoire. Tim Deluca:  Christine, you and I just used a lot of Clifford, the big red dog, right? So Clifford, not an accessible word for an early, early reader, but big red dog. Those all, those all could work, right? So, maybe I'm always saying Clifford, but they're expected to read Big Red Dog.  Christine Holyfield:  Big Red Dog.  Tim Deluca:  So, that joint effort there can also be a useful way of working through it. Amy Wonkka:  I think that's really cool. Yeah, that's a good example. I wonder, do you use any conventions? Like, I remember. Many, many years ago, going to an all curriculum training and they were using like a yellow highlight. So in the example that you gave where maybe the partner is reading Clifford, that word might not be highlighted, [01:02:00]  but cup might be highlighted because that's something that we want our student to decode. Do you ever use any, any strategies like that?  Christine Holyfield:  I do, um, part of it is I've learned to do this from the people who created the all curriculum.  We should also mention that the All Curriculum is a curriculum that's available, um, in printed and app form, I believe, where, um, that can be helpful to people who want to spend less time adapting things on their own. Kate Grandbois:  In our last few minutes, are there any additional pieces of information that you would really, you're just dying to get off your chest that our listeners might benefit from? Your, your final words of wisdom, your parting words.  Christine Holyfield:  I'll say mine's going to come a little bit out of nowhere, but I want to say it. Kate Grandbois:  Um, now I'm very curious. Go for it.  Christine Holyfield:  So, uh, what I would like to beg people to do for Kids Use [01:03:00]  AAC is Teach letter sounds, don't teach letter names. I've met so many kids who can learn, who know their letter names, but they don't know any letter sounds. And it's letter sounds that help you read, not letter names. If someone can learn letter names, they can learn letter sounds. There's nothing more difficult about a letter sound than a letter name. So, let's just teach letter sounds instead, and then while we're at it, let's also teach decoding. Thanks for watching!  Tim Deluca:  That's a good one. Um, I think I, I have two, two quick ones. One is, I think it's Kathy Binger, who's been on your show before and always talks about when we're teaching AAC users, we often forget that we're still just teaching language, right? When we're, when we're trying to support AAC users, we're just, Teaching language the way we typically do just through a different modality. And I think that's an important takeaway from everything we discussed today. There's a lot of research about how to teach word reading. There's a lot of research about how to teach language comprehension. [01:04:00]  A lot of us have a lot of clinical knowledge about how to do both of those things. So now we're just thinking about how to adapt it to meet a certain modality. And then the final takeaway for me is that I think you've heard both Christine and I say a few times now that the research is emerging or there's some research. This is The topics we discussed today are relatively challenging to study, um, and I think Christine and I are both interested in continuing to build on the body of evidence that already exists. So, um, one way we're working towards doing that is building more research practice partnerships. I know both Amy and Kate, you've been part of papers about Thinking about the power dynamics of different research teams and all things like that. And that's that's an area of huge interest for me is thinking about how I can be more effective moving into a role as a researcher in better partnering with clinicians to do the work and answer the questions that are clinically relevant for specific teams and then working to generalize out from there. So quick plug to reach out to me if you're ever interested in doing more of this work and building more of this, this evidence base [01:05:00]  together.  Kate Grandbois:  That just made me so happy. I can attest that Tim will answer your emails, and he's a very, very nice human being. So if you are listening and you are interested in reaching out and just saying, Oh, he's just saying that. No, really? Well, put your email in the show notes. How about that? That was a wonderful thing to say. Uh, it's so important for us at the Nerdcast to really continue to focus on bridging that research practice gap, reducing power differentials between researchers and clinicians, bringing clinicians into the fold. Um, the analogy that we use a lot is a lot of times, You know, there's no seat for us at the table, but it's not just that there's no seat for us at the table. It's that the table is in an office with a door that's hidden and we don't even know where the door is. So it really means a lot that you're extending, um, extending that and, and bringing that up. That's, that's really wonderful. That's my nerdy soapbox for another episode. Another time. Um, thank you both so much for being [01:06:00]  here. This was really, really wonderful. And we're so grateful for your time. Everything that you mentioned, all of the References and resources will be listed in the show notes for anybody who is listening while they drive or fold laundry or what have you. Thank you again so much for being here.  Sponsor Post-Roll Announcer:  Thank you again to our corporate sponsor Ventris Learning, publisher of the Assessment of Literacy and Language, or ALL, and the Diagnostic Evaluation of Language Variation, or the DELV. SLPs, school psychologists, and reading specialists use the ALL to diagnose developmental language disorder and to assess for emergent literacy skills, including dyslexia, for children ages 4 through 6. The DELV is appropriate for students ages 4 through 9 who speak all varieties of English. To learn more, visit www.ventrislearning.com .  Kate Grandbois:  Thank you so much for joining us in today's episode, as always, you can use this episode for ASHA CEUs. You can also potentially use this [01:07:00]  episode for other credits, depending on the regulations of your governing body. To determine if this episode will count towards professional development in your area of study. Please check in with your governing bodies or you can go to our website, www.slpnerdcast.com all of the references and information listed throughout the course of the episode will be listed in the show notes. And as always, if you have any questions, please email us at info@slpnerdcast.com thank you so much for joining us and we hope to welcome you back here again soon. .