This is a transcript from our podcast episode published September 12th, 2021. The podcast episode is offered for .1 ASHA CEU (introductory level, related area). This transcript is made available as a course accommodation for and is supplementary to this episode / course. This transcript is not intended to be used in place of the podcast episode with the exception of course accommodation. Please note: this transcript was created by robots. We do our best to proof read but there is always a chance we miss something. Find a typo? Email us anytime.
A special thanks to our Contributing Editor, Caitlin Akier, for reviewing and editing drafts of our transcripts. Her work helps keep our material accessible.
We're excited for today. We get to welcome Jeannette Washington. Welcome Jeannette.
[00:01:46] Jeannette Washington: Thank you. I feel very welcome upon among you SOP nerds. So I'm glad
[00:01:55] Amy Wonkka: you're here with us today. You need to discuss dyslexia in schools, but before we get started, can you [00:02:00] please tell us a little bit about yourself?
[00:02:02] Jeannette Washington: Sure. , so I'd love to take up some times talking about me.
, again, as you all stated, my name is Jeannette Washington and I worked as an XLP and a software engineer. , I love working within that intersection. It has inspired me to write the novel technical difficulties. Why dyslexic narrative is matter. I am very fond of working with the language based learning population and really creating different avenues for teachers to assess the students that fall under that purview and for SLPs to learn more about their role as it relates to diagnosing, , those with dyslexia.
So I Teeter totter between teachers and SLPs with teachers. I like to help them understand how they can include multi-sensory [00:03:00] activities into their lessons. And with SLPs, I love to help them understand how they are a part of the intervention process diagnosis. And so. So with that all said, , I kind of do a little bit of this, a little bit of that.
, that space is generally called, like ed tech. So maybe we can call this the SLP tech space that I'm in.
[00:03:26] Kate Grandbois: I love that. I love the perspective of, of having this knowledge of language development and dyslexia, and also being a software engineer. And maybe it's just because I'm an a, I know I talked your ear off about this before we hit the record button and maybe it's just because I'm an AAC person, but I, I think that is just so interesting that, that having that two perspectives, that must give you such a unique perspective in your clinical work.
[00:03:51] Jeannette Washington: It certainly does. It provides me with a different lens in which I can, , view different scenarios. And I'll [00:04:00] say that I stumbled upon. Software engineering as a means to, , to find something new. It was an exploratory stage. I was in, I had gotten a divorce and I was like, I want to reinvent myself. So I started really, uh, wanting to, to, to find ways in which I could empower myself as a, you know, as a woman and software engineer kept kind of popping up on my radar.
So I was like, well, let me give it a try. And in doing that, it definitely opened up some new doors that I didn't have open for me previously.
[00:04:37] Kate Grandbois: That's awesome. And you own your own practice now.
[00:04:41] Jeannette Washington: You do a lot of fancy things. My practice, I own a practice called Bearly Articulating and it is in the Detroit Metro area.
So if you are in Michigan, come see me and I hook you up. And right now I'm focusing on creating [00:05:00] assessments and creating resources because I know how important it is to create valuable materials that everyone can use. You know, it's only so much, you can tell people without providing some type of, , resource or material, they can put their hands on.
So that's what I'm focusing on. , in this season of my life. That's
[00:05:23] Kate Grandbois: awesome. Well, in the show notes, everything that we mentioned today, any online resource or any, any article, , will all be listed in the show notes. So people can just have a little library of resources, you know, right in their phone and their podcast player.
So, , well, I, I just really want to keep talking to you, but I have to read these disclosures and learning objectives. So I'm going to try and get through that as quickly as possible. , so quickly the learning objectives and our financial and nonfinancial disclosure, sometimes people write in and ask me to skip this part.
I can't ASHA makes me read it so I will try and get through it as quickly as possible. Uh, learning objective, number one, define how speech pathologists fit into the [00:06:00] intervention process of dyslexia in the school. Learning objective member to provide a comprehensive list of some of the components of a dyslexia diagnosis and learning.
Objective, number three, identify strategies, techniques, and programs that speech pathologists can implement to target phonemic awareness. Then net Washington's financial relationships. Jeannette is the owner of barely articulating and the author of technical difficulties. Why disliked, why dyslexic narratives matter in tech Jeannette's nonfinancial relationships.
Jeannette is a member of the international dyslexia association and the Michigan language, the Michigan speech language hearing association, Kate that's me, my financial disclosures. I'm the owner and founder of grand watt therapy and consulting LLC. And co-founder of SLP nerd cast my nonfinancial disclosures.
I'm a member of Ashesi 12 and serve on the AAC advisory group for Massachusetts advocates for children. I'm also a member of the Berkshire association for behavior analysis and therapy Massey BA and the association for behavior analysis international and the corresponding speech [00:07:00] pathology and applied behavior analysis specialist.
This is Amy.
[00:07:03] Amy Wonkka: My financial disclosures are that I'm an employee of a public school and a cofounder of SLP nerd cast. And my nonfinancial disclosures are that I am a member of ashes sink 12. That's my dog. And I serve on the AAC advisory group for Massachusetts advocates for
[00:07:18] Kate Grandbois: children. I'm able, so Jeannette, we're very excited.
I want to get back into all the nitty-gritty nerdy nerdiness. Can you kick us off by telling us a little bit about dyslexia, just to make sure everybody is on the same page. And then once we've covered that, maybe a little getting into that first learning objective, , talking a little bit about the SLPs.
[00:07:41] Jeannette Washington: All right. So for those listening, I'm sure you've heard dyslexia being thrown out there in conversations casually, but you may not know what dyslexia is. So I am going to explain it to you in layman's terms, dyslexia is a learning disorder that affects your ability to read, [00:08:00] spell, write, and speak.
Essentially it's considered a language-based learning disorder and it's often annotated as S L D specific learning disorder on IEP. So a lot of times you will see SLD and you're, and you're probably wondering what is this? It's likely that it is dyslexia dyslexia falls within the scope of speech language pathology, because it is hallmark with associating letters and sounds with.
Just being unable to really associate them together. And, , your common indicators could include spelling, fanatic phone and elect. Oh my gosh, exactly. I want to say fall analogies so bad. I've been doing a lot of work, , within the letters program, if you all are familiar. And so [00:09:00] we're learning about phonology and phonological awareness.
So it's, it's really deep on my brain. So what I want to say though, is a common indicator of dyslexia would be, , if a student spells phonetically and inconsistently, , for that student to read and reread with little comprehension, difficulty putting thoughts into words. And trouble with writing and copying.
So those things you may see, and those things are some indicators, or as we are familiar with the phrase rich blacks.
[00:09:40] Kate Grandbois: So I know we talked about this a little bit before we started recording, but I think it's an important point in, in that addressing dyslexia, intervening with dyslexia or other language learning differences is definitely within the scope of practice for a speech pathologist.
But again, sort of revisiting that scope of practice as a larger circle, [00:10:00] then their scope of competence within a circle within that larger circle. Right. So just because something's in your scope of practice, doesn't mean it's in your scope of competence. And then within the smallest circle in that little diagram is your role in your workplace.
And I, what I think is interesting about dyslexia is that we share. We share that with so many other disciplines. And if you are a speech and language pathologist, and you know that this intervening, you know, dyslexia, interventions are part of your scope of practice, you feel competent in that area. You still may not feel that it's within your scope and based on your work setting, if there are other professionals who have air quotes, nobody can see me.
I'm doing air quotes who have been designated as the reading teacher or the person to intervene. , and I wonder if you can talk to us a little bit about that gray area and, and how SLPs sort of navigate those three
[00:10:56] Jeannette Washington: roles. Okay. I think that [00:11:00] that was a great question and I love how you framed it for me.
So I will say this dyslexia is not recognized in every state. , current legislation is happening around making more sense. , inclusive and aware of dyslexia and what it is. , there are some states that just, you know, they don't even utilize that terminology. And with that in mind, you have to be, , very aware when you're going into the school districts and, , practices.
With that terminology. So for instance, , in the state of Texas, they have what is called a dyslexia therapist. So that person would be working with the net scope of competency for dyslexic learners, , and, uh, speech language pathologists may not necessarily be the first person that they would go to. If a teacher has a child that is [00:12:00] presenting dyslexia or, you know, have those common indicators, we talked about, , some districts prefer to use reading specialists, , almost exclusively.
So they don't bring the speech and language pathologists into that conversation. So again, intervention is going to differ based on the structure of educational setting and the educational stakeholders and more over within nest. So it's a little political when you think about, , yeah, there's only about, , I'm going to say it's somewhere between 40 and 50 states that recognize dyslexia.
So it's, again, it's political and I've seen legislation that is impending. So I think changes are around the corner, but, , right now you kinda gotta get here where you fit in. And so I think it's important for SLPs to learn about dyslexia and learn how to [00:13:00] assess and, and really be privy to dyslexia as a whole you're setting.
That may not be something that you are working specifically with. So
[00:13:12] Kate Grandbois: I had no idea that it varied so much by geographic lo I mean, everything in our field varies by geographic location to a certain degree, but I think what's unique is that there are. There are different roles and like designated titles and roles and responsibilities that vary so much depending on where you are.
And, you know, thinking about that from the family or client perspective, how confusing is that? So who do you go to and how do you advocate for yourself?
[00:13:43] Jeannette Washington: Very confusing. I would say the first step would be to look at the international dyslexia association website and find your states. And once you find your state, you can start making some allowances [00:14:00] in and learning more about how dyslexia is perceived within your state.
That would be the first step. , but yeah, it's, it's really confusing across the board. I've lived in a couple of different states. That's why for me, it's like, oh my goodness, this is all over the place. Cause when I lived in Mississippi, they were just enacting a law where every child. By the age of five, we'll get a Fest for dyslexia, regardless if they show signs or not.
That was something that the governor put in place because he was actually dyslexic. However, when I moved to Michigan, when I mentioned the word dyslexia, people were like going the other way, like, oh no, I don't want to touch that with a 10 foot pole. So, , it is going to definitely be based on where you are and that can help you to determine what roles you can potentially play.
But I would still say that it's important to understand it so that if you [00:15:00] have general questions, you know, , how to answer them, where to look and that sort of.
[00:15:05] Amy Wonkka: Well, and it sounds like there's the bigger umbrella of what the, what the regulation and sort of practices within your state and then even further, you know, zooming in from that is the piece about, okay.
And then what is it in your school or in your workplace? Because that still may be different. That may be just a difference from district to district. And that's just one more layer of confusion.
[00:15:31] Jeannette Washington: I have to agree. , I've seen intervention. That worked with dyslexic students. And I came in and they said, oh, we got it.
We don't need, you said, oh, that's great because, uh, my case load is already booming. So if you got it, we'll let you
[00:15:47] Kate Grandbois: get it. I mean, think about how many other workplace variables have a negative impact on some of that, , collaboration. And we talk about collaboration on the show a lot and how interdisciplinary multidisciplinary trans [00:16:00] disciplinary interventions are so important.
, how service delivery models play into that in terms of being able to offer indirect service so that you have time written into your day to go collaborate with the dyslexia, like the licensed dyslexia specialist or the literacy specialist, or whoever has been designated as the point person. , I'm wondering if you have any.
Thoughts feelings, words of wisdom, guidance for the speech pathologist. Who's working in a setting who has a student on their caseload, who has this diagnosis, or has this written into their IEP, but feels a little lost in terms of their role on the team, in terms of how to support that student in terms of their language learning difference.
Can you talk about that a little bit?
[00:16:52] Jeannette Washington: That's a great question. , I would say that shows and podcasts like, like these are going to be [00:17:00] super important to that SLP so that they can glean from these opportunities to learn more about dyslexia. I would also say that, , utilizing a screener beforehand could be helpful and that way you get a better understanding of.
What it is that you need to be focused solely on because a lot of times we get these IDPs and they're a little confusing. We're not quite sure what we're supposed to be doing. I mean, we see it as it's written for us in plain view, but again, that's not something that we're extremely familiar with. So it's definitely going to consist of some, some time really understanding what dyslexia is.
, there are some organizations that have some blueprints to help you all to understand exactly what it is that needs to be happening. But I will [00:18:00] say, , as it relates to a comprehensive, maybe like a list of components for a dyslexia diagnosis, you want to have that paper trail that consists of a family history documentation showing whether, , the mother and father.
Experience dyslexia or whether they struggled in that area because as we'll see, dyslexia is hereditary. So there is a large percentage and likelihood that if a mom or a dad may have had dyslexia, then that child is going to prison it as well. You want to also be able to do a language assessment. One of the best assessments that I found out there is going to be, , TEALS.
And it's the norm reference test that has been standardized to identify language and literacy disorders. And, , that is going to help kind of guide you as you create or [00:19:00] modify those goals so that they can be attainable for that student. Oh, I'm sorry. It was an
[00:19:05] Kate Grandbois: acronym. Can you tell us what the acronym name?
Oh, Amy's writing me. Bill's T I L L S.
[00:19:14] Jeannette Washington: So TEALS is T I L L. It is the test of integrated language and literacy skills. Perfect. It's, it's a, , pretty costly tests. Uh, hopefully your district will have it or they'll be able to provide it to you, but, , it is a great way to kind of dive into more of your familiarity with language and a little bit of literacy.
And, , I think it is helpful again, when we're keeping that paper term, we're going to that meeting and we're saying, Hey, this is what I saw. And this is the information I gathered. It really keeps you accountable. Yeah, I hope that answered your question. I know I'm kinda like here and there, because I'm a [00:20:00] really thinking about my younger self and what I needed to know when I was going to those meetings and they were telling me like, this is what this child has, and this is what you have to do.
And mind you, these are people who were not very privy. So the roles and responsibilities of a speech language pathologist. So that's why I'm kinda like a little here, a little there. So I'm thinking, what would I have benefited from learning?
[00:20:27] Amy Wonkka: Well, and we talk, we talk a lot on this podcast podcast, just about how having a comprehensive assessment really informs your ability to develop a treatment plan and generate your goals and objectives.
So knowing, you know, where is a good starting point, I think is super helpful, whether you are, you know, somebody who's part of a team supporting a student who, you know, is presenting with dyslexia, or whether you're the sole provider or, you know, depending upon your work environment and the state that you're living in.[00:21:00]
, knowing a good starting point for an assessment, I think is really helpful. And I was wondering if you could talk to a little bit kind of just about that, but if you're kind of steering the ship in terms of the intervention, if you're a speech language pathologist who is supporting a student who has these learning needs, you know, what are some.
What are some tips in terms of kind of collaborating if somebody else is the person who's kind of driving the
[00:21:28] Jeannette Washington: intervention? Well, that's a great question too. So I will say that, , we should consider the fact that every, I must say to enable the child to make progress. And, , these IPS must be appropriately ambitious in the light of the child's disability.
So when we go into the IEP meetings, , and we are mindful that we're here to provide, , our expertise in any way that's possible and we're open to. [00:22:00] Providing that feedback or, , being that echo, then I think that makes it a little easier. I know at times we are collaborating with different experts, different professionals.
It's almost like we're all buddy kids, because everybody wants to really assert themselves as the person that is driving the ship. But I think in this instance, if the ship is already being drove and you've been asked to be a passenger to make sure you are listening and I'm taking notes as to what people's different feelings are the parents, what are the parents being combative?
Are they accepting of this diagnosis on the other professionals around you? Are there. Providing support that you think is, , equitable or are they pushing back a little bit? So I think being very observant is going to be important in that driving force, [00:23:00] as you are working alongside other professionals and not making it into an ego thing, you know, you're just listening.
And at that point you're creating, and this may be helpful. I can't say that I've done this before, but almost like sketching. A, , like a web, so you can understand, okay, this is what I can bring to the table. And this is what they're currently asking for or requiring. And you, because I know that multi-sensory, , teaching instruction is helpful, even for us, as we're learning as adults.
Once I, sensory expression is so important. So consider taking some time and creating a mind map or a graphic organizer, just what a pencil or pen or whatever you have available at that meeting. It may be a craft and understanding how you can connect within those different places or gaps that exist.
[00:23:58] Amy Wonkka: I love that idea.
[00:24:00] I love that idea even more broadly, just in terms of collaborative planning and working together students. I think that that's a great idea.
[00:24:08] Kate Grandbois: I also think, and we see this is an also a repeat thing. You mentioned the word ego, that is a critical piece, a critical barrier to effective collaboration. I think, especially when you're talking about, , eh, uh, clinical area that is shared by so many disciplines and could be specifically allocated to one discipline in particular, if you're in a different state or school or workplace setting or what have you.
, so I, I think just for the sake of saying that again, I think that's a really important piece to consider. Yeah. I mean,
[00:24:41] Jeannette Washington: it's easy to be egotistical. I think it's harder to just take a back seat or to say, you know what, I'm going to listen, what I've been finding, which is so, uh, monumental as an adult is if you just listen.
, and just be observant. There's so [00:25:00] much that you can take in. , I was born in February and, , I'm not really into astrology. My, my family is though they aren't always talking about it. So as a Pisces, I have like very intuitive nature about myself. And that's so important when I'm in these meetings, I'm leading with my intuition and I'm just sitting back and I'm watching body language.
, you know, I'm listening. And I think that that is so underrated. You know, we, we go into these meetings and we want to listen. I got my master's from here, or I am a PhD. I am very aware of listen. Take a seat, say out a piece of paper and really start doodling some, some notes to yourself. And you'd be surprised you probably walk out of the meeting more informed than you would have if you went in there, which a cap and gown on some about where
[00:25:57] Kate Grandbois: no one can see Amy and I dislike aggressively [00:26:00] head-nodding and us being just all the high fives for that statement.
I think, I think the power of listening is something that we don't do enough as, as humans. , and I think part of that is maybe cultural, , here in the states and it provides, it creates opportunities across everything. Clinically collaboration, counseling. I mean, where there's, there are so many, we wear so many hats as professionals.
, and I think learning to listen, , is, is just so critical. So thank you so much for bringing that up too. I mean, that's so true.
[00:26:38] Jeannette Washington: Are we listening to respond or are we listening to just, you know, grasp that information
[00:26:44] Kate Grandbois: kind of listening? Exactly.
[00:26:46] Jeannette Washington: Yeah.
[00:26:48] Kate Grandbois: Okay. So I want to, I want to zoom out a little bit and sort of think about, , the role of the SLP and sort of getting into the second learning objective about what some of the [00:27:00] comprehensive co what, what, what what's some of the components of the dyslexia diagnosis are.
So you're an SLP and X school. The, , you have a student or students on your caseload with this written into their IEP. You are not. Quote, unquote dyslexia specialist in your workplace setting, you have some of these, I'm just sort of like painting the picture. You have this team environment, you have this collaborative piece, you started talking a little bit about assessment, and I think that's so important because like Amy said, assessment and a thorough and comprehensive assessment will really drive our treatment.
, and I th I'm, I'm wondering if you can make that connection there for us in terms of the components of the dyslexia diagnosis and what else and how you might look through that lens to frame a more comprehensive
[00:27:52] Jeannette Washington: assessment. Okay. So generally there are about eight different things that need to be assessed.
And we talked about that [00:28:00] case study, where you're getting that family history and you're understanding the familiar structure of that student. We also talked about, , that TEALS T I L L. Assessment that is going to focus on language and literacy. We also want to do an achievement test than intelligence test and articulation test motor skills, tests, and social skills.
Those are all going to be very helpful as we are looking at the whole child and understanding whether that child has dyslexia.
[00:28:36] Kate Grandbois: That's a lot of tests.
[00:28:38] Jeannette Washington: It is a lot of tests. That's why it calls for a all hands on deck. I mean, some, some common things that we evaluate could be, you know, word recognition. , we're an autonomous C reading fluency, as you'll see within that Till's assessment.
, the coding [00:29:00] phonological awareness, , as I was stumbling over that word earlier, all of those things kind of tie into place and we need to know whether they are existing at a milestone level or benchmark or whether they are very low for that student. So we can make an accurate picture of dyslexia.
[00:29:22] Amy Wonkka: I, can you talk to us just a little bit more, as we were saying before we started recording Kate and I have like very, very minimal skills in this area.
So this might be a silly question. , but. What might you expect to see in going through like a comprehensive battery like that, that would make a dyslexia diagnosis more likely relative to something else, accounting for the difficulties that we're seeing with a student.
[00:29:47] Jeannette Washington: Okay. So the first thing I think of, , usually those who have a dyslexia diagnosis are students that have a high or an [00:30:00] average IQ.
So that's something that sticks out to me, plainly, , and is one of the things that makes dyslexia so unique because people automatically assume it is a disability and that that person has a lower IQ or a lower achievement score. So that in itself is going to be, , a red flag. So to speak. Once you see that there.
[00:30:26] Amy Wonkka: That's helpful. That makes sense. Is there anything else that sort of stands out that you're looking for? I think you mentioned, you know, you want to do on articulation assessment, , just thinking about those other assessments that people are doing, you know, and that pattern that the SLP or, or kind of the comprehensive team, not just the SLP that everybody's really looking for in doing all those different assessments.
[00:30:50] Jeannette Washington: So, , one thing you'll notice is that, , when it comes to potentially articulation that the dyslexic [00:31:00] learner may have a hard time putting sounds together and blending on they're going to have issues. Segmenting and rhyming, those are not going to be skills that come easily to those with dyslexia. So those again are going to be those indicators, red flags.
And as you are going through the assessment process, you can kind of take a note of that or put a check by that like, Hmm. This child, , had issues with putting those thoughts that they had into words, or they had issues with, , spelling or writing, , consistently. So, , their writing samples are going to usually be very consistent because they will be, , writing, listening to the words and writing those words.
There's a disruption there. So they're hearing different sounds. They're not able to associate those sounds. So those [00:32:00] things will, will help you to make an informed, uh, assessment overall.
[00:32:07] Amy Wonkka: So I feel like with all of that, it just makes it that much clearer that it really isn't important to have all of these different components.
It's, it's not something where if you suspect dyslexia, you do the tills
[00:32:18] Kate Grandbois: and then you.
[00:32:20] Jeannette Washington: Again, I think I stated this earlier, but it's important for people to do a potentially like a screener beforehand. , a screener can help you so that you don't waste a ton of time. It's going to work smarter and not harder for you, because if you do like a quick little screener, there are online screeners that are pretty lucrative out there.
And if you were to look for one, I would make sure that it had a CEO from the international dyslexia association. So you knew that it was accredited, but you could do a quick screener, maybe 10 minutes, and that'll help you to see whether a further assessment is warranted or, you know, is this [00:33:00] something that the child just is struggling?
Or is this something that is, , you know, probably age appropriate or, or that sort of thing. So a Springer is going to help you rule out and it can help you save time as well. Because if you do see those indicators in the screener and you say, okay, we need to get a team together and we need to make sure all eight of these components are assessed.
[00:33:27] Kate Grandbois: So let's say you're a speech pathologist with, you know, a hundred students on your caseload. That's, you know, the reality for a lot of our counterparts originally. And you've identified this student, as you know, having some of his, as you say, red flags, you conduct the screener. It shows you that there is something to be concerned about it that you should move forward with a more comprehensive assessment.
And this assessment that you described, this very thorough assessment that touches on all these dignities diagnostic criteria is very thorough. And I have to assume [00:34:00] time consuming. Do you often see. Multiple members of team helping to take on this assessment. Do you, do you usually see speech pathologists referring out for some of these assessments or is this something that's best done maybe in the school, in a team environment?
[00:34:18] Jeannette Washington: I've definitely seen a lot more, , of the referring out, but again, that's going to follow that per view of whether that is, , something that is acceptable at that particular school, because if a referral is not, and then I, okay. So I'm going to pause that for a second. And it just tells you that a dyslexia assessment outside of school is going to be very expensive.
One of my good friends just got one in the state of Michigan. She Def definitely paid over a thousand dollars to have her child assessed. Now, when you think about the average family, , you know, there are going to be one or [00:35:00] two children per household that might not be achievable. So that's something you want to make sure you consider.
I would say that having someone in-house do it and having an SOP that can connect with her intervention team or with her colleagues and say, Hey, can you assess for this? Because I'm going to be working to assess this of what would be a better and a more feasible option. , because a lot of universities do offer, uh, assessments for dyslexia, but the waiting list can be up to a year.
So again, and this is coming from the knowledge I've gained ambition. I don't know whether there are easier ways in which you can do it. In other states, when I lived in Mississippi, their work easier ways to get a full assessment. And you didn't have to really rely on an SOP too much, because again, you had that dyslexia therapist and also the fact that there were laws in place [00:36:00] where all students that assess regardless.
So if you're in a state like minds, , you may want to double down and try to see what it is he can do in house, because if you make that referral, , it, the parent may not be able to afford to get their child assessed, and then that's going to cause potentially illiteracy and then illiteracy can cause potential prison pipeline issues.
So it just keeps going and going and going. So,
[00:36:30] Kate Grandbois: , I'm so glad you mentioned that because I, in another episode, We've, you know, we've talked about this before about that, you know, we as SLPs have a responsibility because there are really big impacts. If you have, you know, struggles with literacy, that has a really, it's a ripple effect across, you know, communities sometimes.
So, , I think, I think that's a really good point. I'm, I'm really glad that you mentioned it. , and I also want to say, you know, if there are waiting lists and I, I wouldn't be [00:37:00] surprised if that's a systemic, more of a systemic nationwide issue, just given the shortage of at least speech pathologists right now you lose a year of instruction time.
So, you know, that's just waiting for an assessment. , so I guess what I'm wondering is if there is an SLP listening, who's really in that pickle and, and would like to do an assessment, but is realistically restraint, you know, restricted by time, the time problem, the, the time problem that we all have. Are there ways to share the, you know, the burden of bringing in other, , obviously advocating with your administration is a really huge piece of this in terms of like altering your workplace setting to better serve your students.
But that's a, you know, a mountain to climb for a lot of us. , but are there other people on the school team who might be well-suited to participate in that assessment so that the SLP doesn't need to carry that?
[00:37:52] Jeannette Washington: Yeah, absolutely. That's a great like followup too. So I would say definitely lean [00:38:00] in with that teacher.
Lean in potentially with, , the social worker or the counselor at the school. Cause they can assist with those social skills. , then you want to see who else is usually in a traditional school. You, you usually would have like a social worker, counselor you'd have the teacher of course, and the SOP. So those are the primary, uh, pillars of a school.
And I would say just lenient with those individuals also be intentional about the time you set, because if you had a large caseload, , you don't want to, , yields in society around this or you don't want to become, , well, what I like to think of it, it's not really procrastination, but it's almost like.
Do you, you know, you have something to do, but you really don't want to do it. So you kind of dragged along, but you don't want to obviously build that into your routine because that's not going to benefit students, nor is it going to [00:39:00] benefit you because you'll have this thing hanging over you that you have to do.
So I would say, be intentional about your time. , even if that is setting aside 45 minutes every day to focus on that, uh, I don't know, 45 minutes things like. Uh, cause time that's, that's the issue, but just being intentional, because I think if you set aside, I'll say at the lowest 20 minutes per school day to kind of focus your energy into that assessment, then you'd likely be able to cover more ground and also do not be afraid to ask colleagues for assistance.
You know, ask that teacher say, Hey, I know you have a lot on your plate, but we really got to get Johnny squared away so that he can, , have the tools he needs to succeed overall.
[00:39:49] Kate Grandbois: And if the SLP, this fictitious person, who's in my mind, listening to them. So listening to this, and we're describing this issue in terms of where there probably is a real prison [00:40:00] in terms of advocacy, hating wit to create workplace change or advocating with the administration.
Are there resources out there that you can point someone to, to, you know, a sat you've already mentioned? , I think the international association, the international dyslexia association website, and how that might have some information about state law and state requirements, but are there other things that you would recommend an SLP bring to the table in terms of advocating for structural change?
[00:40:31] Jeannette Washington: So, , yeah, it's very thoughtful.
How
[00:40:33] Kate Grandbois: do you fix the world, Jeannette? How do you fix all the problems?
[00:40:41] Jeannette Washington: One step at a time, one step at a time. So, , what I would say we do have the most powerful tools in the whole wide world at our fingertips, and that is our cell phones. So we want to make sure that we are using them in a deliberate way. And that may mean [00:41:00] Googling decoding dyslexia or Googling, you know, international dyslexia association, or even Googling at the academy of, in Gillingham to see what's out there because knowledge is power.
And that I've got to really help you move that dial. Once you understand the state, like, , the, the state's scope of things, then you can really move some mountains there. So I would say to Google and see what you can really bring to the table. It would take five minutes to look at, , an article on decoding dyslexia or to be able to pull up some information about.
How, , the advocacy process works as a whole, right? So you want to definitely make sure you are looking up some grassroots organizations that are, , really pivotal in that community. One that [00:42:00] is nationwide is caught decoding dyslexia, and that was created by us. The mom. Who found that their children were not being supportive, like they felt they should.
So they created it, this outreach arm. And, , I would say looking at some of the work that they done would be helpful because as we know, advocacy is not a one size fits all. It's not a cookie cutter situation where we can copy it and paste it here. So understanding the scope of this Lexia from your state standpoint, I think that's going to give you, , a lot of ammunition as you're moving forward, because you want to know what the state has in place.
And so you can start, , calling out those different laws and, and letting people know.
[00:42:51] Kate Grandbois: And sound very important quoting laws.[00:43:00]
[00:43:07] Jeannette Washington: exactly,
[00:43:07] Kate Grandbois: exactly. No, you're right. Power. I think that that's such a good, you know, something that we already know, , you know, knowledge is
[00:43:14] Jeannette Washington: power, but I was going to say, we don't want to give you all too much homework, but you kind of got to do a little homework when it comes to this. Just a little
[00:43:22] Kate Grandbois: it's a little, but if you're listening, presumably you're seeking out this information anyway, and now yes, you're you're now you have kudos to you.
Yes. Dropping the breadcrumbs. This is where you can learn more. , and in the time that we have left, we need to get to our third learning objective. And I, I have to ask you a little bit about assistive technology because I'm just dying to, but I'm going to save that for the end, in terms of. , strategies and techniques that an SLP can implement to target phonemic awareness.
So again, painting that picture, you're, you know, Jane SLP in the schools, you've got, you have a time [00:44:00] problem. You've done the screener. You pulled in all the resources at school to complete this fabulous, comprehensive assessment that took no time. And you've lost no instructional time because this is a fictitious scenario.
What that we're just moving through it. And now it's time to start writing your IEP goals or writing your, you know, writing up your treatment plans and really thinking about how to move forward. What are some of your like best recommendations for, for when you are in that place?
[00:44:29] Jeannette Washington: Okay. So first I would say, , as we know, phonemic awareness is the ability to identify and manipulate individual sounds in spoken words.
So we want to be conscious of activity. That will heighten their, , or our students' ability to identify and manipulate those sounds. , first one I can think of is tapping syllables or clapping syllables. You know, you can start a [00:45:00] therapy session with just doing that with their name. Hey is so nice to see you and, you know, maybe create a routine where he taps those syllables of his first and last name with you, just in the intro of you and the student getting together.
, you can do syllable tallies, uh, just, I think it's important to really be creative. , we can do a syllable search in your speech room where you go around and sort words by syllables, just from what the child sees around them. , I think using our nursery rhymes and songs like Hickey Pickety are often fun.
, but when I look at. Ways in which we can notate that on an IEP, we can do, , goals like this student will be able to recognize and generate rhyming words, various structured activities with 80% accuracy. , maybe another goal could [00:46:00] be the student will be able to identify initial medial and final phonemes in, uh, uh, high frequency words, or grade appropriate words.
So those are going to be good goals and achievable goals for that student. Because again, we want to make sure is that, , the IEP. Main aim, which is enabled to chop the child to make progress and it must be appropriately ambitious. So I think that those would be some very ambitious goals and those would also help you to utilize, uh, Hickory Pickety.
And like I said, the syllable surge or tapping those syllables
[00:46:42] Amy Wonkka: well, and it, and it makes me kind of think back to those examples, make me think back to what we were talking about at the very beginning of this podcast where, okay. You might not be driving the ship, but there are a number of people on the ship.
Right. So if those are your goals and objectives in your speech and language session, I mean, it's, it's not a huge jump to think about [00:47:00] how ideally you're coordinating with other providers in the child's school environment to work on those same things. If you're using a clapping, tapping strategy, you're going to at least want to share that information with the teacher.
, And I think that some of these, I know that our third learning objective is about speech and language, but I also know that you work with educators. , and I didn't know if you wanted to talk a little bit about when you've seen effective use of some of those strategies and techniques across environments.
[00:47:30] Jeannette Washington: Yes. Please talk. Well, yeah, so I think that that's those, , those aha moments that make what we do so much more when, uh, the child can do that, carry over and. And, , really just seeing the teacher, implementing things and strategies that you suggested, and you utilizing some of those same resources, uh, with the student when you're in their therapy [00:48:00] session.
That is just amazing. And it's also important to, to have that parent or a board. So everybody is targeting those same areas of interest and that child will be seeing progress a lot sooner because there'll be using it across the board. So, , I would say working with the classroom teacher is going to be one of the most important, if not the important, , the most important thing as you are building that carry over, , even coming into the teacher's class.
What I've done on a lot of occasions is coming into the class and doing almost like a coaching session. Like I'm showing her what I did. And she's like, oh, well, I could do this too. If she's implementing it. And it's really just the best. I love to see it love to see her.
[00:48:48] Kate Grandbois: And I, I, I know I repeat myself every single episode that we recorded, Amy's laughing.
Cause she knows that I, you know what I'm going to say. Do you want to say it now? You can say, you want me to say it, [00:49:00] the importance of indirect service, the indirect service delivery model and having it written into your IEP so that you have time. You have time, you are doing a service to the student by even just by consulting, by observing, by teaching the teacher, by being a learner of watching the student in the classroom.
I mean, all of those things are critical components to us being effective team members. And for some reason in our field, We get really stuck on. And I think this is just a field issue, not like a clinician issue, but we have this, you know, culturally, uh, uh, uh, I don't know, preference for this direct service and thinking that that's the best way to service our clients and direct service doesn't necessarily mean pull out.
It could mean push in, but the indirect service delivery model allows you for so much more flexibility. And I'm really on a soapbox here. I'm sorry. I just, I literally say it every single time. I needed to make a t-shirt or [00:50:00] something that I don't have to keep saying it. The aha moment that you just said, how can you make that happen if you don't have indirect service written into your grid?
[00:50:12] Jeannette Washington: Yeah, that's, that's a good point. You make, , I will say that gender, you said. Laughing at you say it all the time, but Hey, sometimes I think hearing it more and more and repetition helps us to really acknowledge how important it is. And then we take that with us as we're in our schools and our classrooms, so, or our therapy rooms, so to speak.
[00:50:37] Kate Grandbois: So in the time that we have left, you've done you've, you've given us a really nice rundown of, , what SLPs can do to target phonemic awareness. I loved some of the suggestions that you just gave. I have to ask you how assistive technology fits into all of this. You know, that I have to ask that question.
Hi.
[00:50:56] Jeannette Washington: So this, the technology is definitely going to be [00:51:00] your friend. , I will say that text to speech and speech to text software is some of them. Like okay. Dyslexic adults and dyslexic high school students I work with, they absolutely can not get enough of audibles or, , speech to text devices that helps them to still be able to communicate their thoughts around certain topics and habits, , written out for them like a dictation or for them to be able to listen to information and have it.
We come into their form front and they're comprehending it in a way. So some tools that I have seen that, uh, they love when it comes to the text to speech are going to be into words, natural readers. Uh, re-ask. And then when it comes to speech to text, you can [00:52:00] look at dragon naturally speaking and talk typer.
Those are some of that I have seen been used often. Now, when I travel internationally and work with individuals with dyslexia, I find that the smart pen. Is really important to them. And that's something that I wasn't really exposed to here. But when I went to Nigeria, I saw that they were using a lot of smart pens and basically it's like a ballpoint pen and you use it as you're reading and it dictates that information to you or speaks it to you.
And I was like, oh, that's really cool. So I want to, yeah. I want to actually get more of those. I saw one in action and I was like, oh my God. So I have to get some so I can, , you know, share them with all my SLP friends. , other ones I would say, uh, color overlays have been helpful with reading. , let's [00:53:00] see timers and metronomes.
Aren't sent to be really, really helpful. , I know for me, I use the Pomodoro technique and that's helpful for me. And I also think of those with ADHD that could potentially benefit from a timer and metronome. And if you all didn't know, okay, well, let me say, if you all didn't know dyslexia and ADHD, co-occur about 60% of it.
What did you want? My
[00:53:32] Kate Grandbois: question was what's the Pomodoro technique.
[00:53:36] Jeannette Washington: Oh, fun. Okay. So I learned that when I learned to code it was so, uh, helpful for me. So you worked hard for like 25 minutes and you get that task done and then no, no. Is it 20 minute? I think it's 20 minutes. You work for about 20 minutes on a task and then you take a five minute break and then you work for 20 minutes and you take a five minute break.
So that's the Pomodoro technique and it's really [00:54:00] helpful because it helps you to stay anchored and laser focus for those 20 years. And then we, that five minutes you can say, who take your break rules, and then you jump back in for the 20 minutes. And so it really keeps the momentum with the project that you have going, , whether it is studying for school, , or just working now that we're all working from home.
I can, you can see how that's helpful. I have to take many, many breaks, but to be able to focus on something for that 20 minutes that, uh, you can get a lot done. I
[00:54:33] Kate Grandbois: love that. I see. Now when you mentioned, you know, using timers and metronomes how that can sort of be a support using that technique. That makes a lot of sense.
So if you're the SLP and you're listening to this and your hygiene, SOP, who's listening and you have this situation, and you're really interested in assistive technology, just again, bringing it back to the school environment, [00:55:00] at what point. Would you start recommending an assistive technology of Val or start trying to, I mean, just again, thinking about that, their learning objective in terms of supporting our students, , with phonemic awareness, at what point do you sort of start to bring in some of that assistive technology?
[00:55:18] Jeannette Washington: Honestly, , I really do it early on because we are working with digital natives. These students have in these children have never lived in a time where technology was not easily available to them. You know? So with that in mind, they are using this on a regular basis, regardless. So you just adding on a layer of support by saying, Hey, when your son is using his tablets and now.
Why don't you all look at this particular app or, you know, this software and this'll help you do this and this'll help to achieve that. I think I, I pretty [00:56:00] much re , you know, put that out there within that first couple of weeks, because they're already using the technology. It's easy for them such as implement whatever new strategy you have using that M 80 device.
So, I mean, again, these are digital natives we're talking about and a lot of the assistive technology, especially if it's on that level. Or medium strand. It doesn't require training for now. If we're talking about something on that high tech end, then we would need to have a actual training done so that parents, and everybody knows how to utilize that.
But, , if it's at that low to medium strand of technology, then yeah, I usually tell them the door. I think
also
[00:56:50] Amy Wonkka: just how much technology has evolved in a relatively short period of time. I mean, and you know, this much more intimately than I do just kind of as a [00:57:00] consumer. , but just thinking about things like.
You know, I recently found out my public library lets me get free audio books and I can just check out free audio books. And this is my new favorite thing.
[00:57:13] Jeannette Washington: Yes. I've been using it for over a year.
[00:57:17] Amy Wonkka: I love it up with it. And I'm like told everybody about like, did you, you could get free books in the library.
[00:57:24] Jeannette Washington: So I am obsessed with that
[00:57:28] Amy Wonkka: big magic, the library sense of book to your phone and you can just listen to it. So I think some of these things you are just, if you happen to be dealing with people like me, who didn't even know that was a thing, just giving people exposure.
This is technology that, like you said, you know, folks like us who are maybe a little bit older, we're not maybe digital natives, but the kids are. And so just giving us all awareness that this is just sort of accessibility for our culture now. And it's amazing. And yeah.
[00:57:57] Jeannette Washington: The library center. Really amazing.
I'm [00:58:00] sorry. I was just, I'm so excited with you right now. This is my favorite thing. Like I can, we could do a podcast for the entire title. We talk about this. That's how
my son, he's eight years old. We listened to audibles all the time like this. This is,
[00:58:23] Kate Grandbois: I need to, I
need
[00:58:24] Jeannette Washington: to get on this train.
[00:58:27] Amy Wonkka: And it is magic and it comes to your phone. And that's, I, I
[00:58:32] Kate Grandbois: love, I love that. I love it, but I, I do think that you make it not to bring us back to the boring stuff, but I think you make a really good point about eating to the consumer, meeting people, where they are in terms of how they're consuming it.
Because if they're already, if it's already a part of their daily life, then extending that into an educational learning environment is really not. It's really not that big of a deal. We're all using technology all the time. Anyway. , I, I have learned so much from this. I [00:59:00] am so grateful for your time before we wrap up, do you have any additional gyms or words of wisdom that you want to leave our
[00:59:08] Jeannette Washington: audience?
Oh, gee, you put me on the spot with that one. Well, if
[00:59:13] Kate Grandbois: you, if you had a message for the SLP out there in this position that we are discussing.
[00:59:21] Jeannette Washington: What are your words? I would, I would say you are not alone. You simply need to just lean in a little harder. Other people are asking the same questions. Other people are in the same position.
, so I hope that this isn't an isolating experience for you. , you can certainly reach out to me. I have tons of resources. I am sending people resources all day long. And, and I don't mind it because that's, that's what we're here for. We're here to be resourceful to one another. So there you have it.
[00:59:57] Kate Grandbois: That was excellent. Thank you so much for joining [01:00:00] us.
Thank you so much for joining us in today's episode. As always, you can use this episode for ASHA CEUs . You can also potentially use this episode for other credits, depending on the regulations of your governing body. To determine if this episode will count towards professional development in your area of study, please check in with your governing bodies or you can go to our website, www.slpnerdcast.com.
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