This is a transcript from our podcast episode published January 10th, 2022. The podcast episode is offered for .1 ASHA CEU (introductory level, professional area). This transcript is made available as a course accommodation for and is supplementary to this episode / course. This transcript is not intended to be used in place of the podcast episode with the exception of course accommodation. This course counts towards the ASHA supervision requirement. Please note: This transcript was created by robots. We do our best to proof read but there is always a chance we miss something. Find a typo? Email us anytime.
A special thanks to our Contributing Editor, Caitlin Akier, for reviewing and editing drafts of our transcripts. Her work helps keep our material accessible.
[00:01:40] Kate Grandbois: Amy. I think our introduction is getting longer and longer. Every time we read it, it feels like it got longer.
If you're still with us, we are really excited for today's topic. Um, this is a topic that Amy and I have mentioned a couple of times on the show, but we've really never set aside a whole hour to really get into it and [00:02:00] discuss it.
And we have the great pleasure of welcoming, a wonderful guest, Jill to Bronstein. Welcome Jill.
[00:02:06] Jill D'Braunstein: Hi ladies. Thanks so much for having me.
[00:02:10] Amy Wonkka: Yeah, we're so excited to have you and Jill, you're here to discuss supervision like Kate said before we get started. Can you please tell us a little bit about yourself?
[00:02:18] Jill D'Braunstein: Of course. Um, I live in Southern California, born and raised. Um, so I'm from the sunny weather all day, every day, all year round. Um, I've been practicing, um, for over 25 years. Um, that's a hard number to say, um, because, uh, it has a lot of connotations with it. Um, but I have been practicing in multiple different areas and settings from starting out in the hospitals and the acute setting.
Then moving into peds and starting with littles [00:03:00] from, um, newborn through age three, and then just gradually moving, um, up the age scale to public schools and private practice. Um, currently own my own small little boutique business here in Orange, California, and, um, focus on, um, AAC and literacy as well as, um, social pragmatics and language.
So, um, I've a little bit of dabbling, a lot of specific areas, um, and just love this, um, practice and this area.
[00:03:41] Kate Grandbois: That's awesome. And we had such a great conversation with you before we hit the record button, and I'm so excited to share all of that wisdom with everyone. Um, as many of our listeners have heard us say before, it's so important to, um, have a good relationship with your mentees and your supervisees and becoming a [00:04:00] supervisor or becoming a mentor, um, is so important, uh, for our field, which we will get into in a little bit before we do get into that, though, I am required by the powers that be to read our learning objectives, our learning objectives, and our disclosures.
So learning objective number one, describe the ASHA requirements and the role of the SLP as supervisor or mentor
Learning objective number two, identify at least two common areas where new graduates may need additional guidance.
And learning objective number three, describe the importance of using a needs based approach to increase the success of your clinical fellows. Experience Disclosures, Gilda. Brownsteins financial disclosures. Jill is the owner of a private practice and JDB speech, a teachers pay teachers store Jill's nonfinancial, Jill has no nonfinancial relationships to this.
Kate that's me, financial disclosures. I'm the owner and founder of Grandbois Therapy and consulting LLC. And co-founder of SLP nerd cast my nonfinancial disclosures. I'm a member of [00:05:00] ASHA, SIG 12, and I serve on the AAC advisory group from Massachusetts advocates for children. I'm also a member of the Berkshire Berkshire associates, the Berkshire association for behavior analysis and therapy, MASS ABA, the association for behavior analysis international and the corresponding speech pathology and applied behavior analysis special interest group.
[00:05:19] Amy Wonkka: Amy, that's me financial disclosures. I'm an employee of a public school system and co-founder of SLP nerd cast. My non-financial disclosures are that I am a member of ASHA, SIG 12, and I serve on the AAC advisory group for Massachusetts advocates for children.
All right now onto the good stuff. Jill, why don't you start us off just telling our listeners a little bit about the importance of supervision. Why, why should we, why is it important.
[00:05:42] Jill D'Braunstein: Well, there's a lot of reasons why it's really important. Number one, um, the purpose is for the CF to teach the CF to integrate and apply the knowledge from academic, their academic education and their clinical training.[00:06:00]
Um, while the supervisor, the supervisor evaluates the strengths and identifies limitations in order to develop and refine their clinical skills, um, and, and just keep in contact with them so that they can grow into being an independent practitioner. So that's really ASHA’s um, statement of what the purpose is.
Um, I believe the purpose and, and the importance of supervision is for seasoned clinicians to be able to give back and contribute to the growth of our profession, um, training up the, the new grads in the way that, um, to be that, that mentor, that, um, that professional buddy, so to speak, to have somebody that they can always feel comfortable going to, whether it's in two years from now 10 years from now, um, that you build that relationship [00:07:00] within your community of speech, language pathologists, um, and help them grow theirs as well.
So I really feel like it's a way to give back, um, the knowledge and the experience that just takes time. So.
[00:07:15] Kate Grandbois: And I know we have a lot of really great stuff to get to today, but I just want to hover over that point really quickly because of how important it is, because it, to me, it touches on some very fundamental aspects of being a clinician, such as you never know everything.
There is always something to learn and having that relationship where sometimes learning can mean that you have to take a moment to be vulnerable and admit, I don't know this, or oops, I made a mistake or what could I have done differently? And having a mentor relationship or a supervisor, a good positive supervisory relationship gives you that space to learn.
And that should never really be over as we continue growing as [00:08:00] clinicians.
[00:08:01] Jill D'Braunstein: Right. You can't see, but I'm nodding my head. Exactly. Um, that's exactly how I feel, you know, um, I think within, with any, any business that you're in, experience at, at a certain point supersedes knowledge, and when you're first entering the profession, you don't have the experience that takes time.
It takes, you know, relationships. Um, and so the mentor really is that person that you can go to without having that experience, you have a lot of book knowledge and, and maybe some clinical knowledge as well, um, based on your previous experience, but, um, just the experience and the ins and the outs of all of those different scenarios that you can’t, you can't really get in any graduate program because there's so many different situations that, um, you have to just learn through experience. So the mentor is really that person and I [00:09:00] really encourage new grads to find the right mentor, um, and or clinical supervisor that you can lean into and really feel comfortable, um, not just for your clinical fellowship year, but also, you know, moving forward throughout your whole clinical experience, so.
[00:09:19] Amy Wonkka: Well, and I feel like you raised such a good point that it's an opportunity to give back to the field. And, you know, I think all in all three of us who are sitting here had a CF supervisor, and it's either your opportunity to kind of try and emulate that awesome supervision that you had. Um, shout out to Julie Johnson at Clemson center, 10 points, you were amazing, um, or, you know, to sort of be the CF supervisor that you wished that you'd had.
Right. But, but it's an experience that's part of becoming a clinician for everybody who's in the field of speech language pathology. Um, and you know, we all benefited from somebody who took the time [00:10:00] to prioritize that as something that they were willing to do.
[00:10:02] Jill D'Braunstein: Right. I agree. Yeah. I think um taking, I am by no means the perfect supervisor.
That is not what I'm here to say. I have my faults. I have my days, I don't know everything. Um, but I think that, um, I think my clinicians learn how, some good things for me and probably some, some things that I'm, you know, maybe not so great at. Um, and I'm the first one to own that. So I think, um, I think the takeaway is for the CF to really, um, find a good match and, uh, take the good and the bad and, and create your, and be, you know, your own clinician.
Um, not trying to make mini Jills, you know, I'm trying to create, you know, and teach them to figure out their path and what that looks like for them.
[00:10:56] Kate Grandbois: Another point I want to make just before we sort of get deeper into the first learning [00:11:00] objective is as the learner and the supervisor, um, there is only so much that you can learn from academic knowledge when you're a clinician.
So you can read every article on the earth. You can read every textbook on the earth, but that is not necessarily going to translate to applicable clinical skill. I had a professor in grad school who said this to me once, and it's always resonated with me that being a clinician is a science and an art.
It's two things at once. So there's this applied component of being able to plan a session, being able to switch gears when your session bombs halfway through, or you, you know, you've lost the attention of your learner or you're, you know, the materials you're prepared are too hard or too easy, or, you know, whatever it is.
So I think having a, uh, buddy in arms or, uh, you know, a great relationship. In the building to help you work through those more, more difficult moments. There, there is. That's the knowledge piece that you were [00:12:00] mentioning before that that's not necessarily coming from your content knowledge that's coming from clinical skill, correct?
[00:12:06] Jill D'Braunstein: Yes. And that that's, that art is, um, one of my pieces of, uh, being a clinical supervisor is teaching that art and that finesse and, um, teaching them to not see it as a personal failure, but as a, as a learning, um, tool to grow from, um, cause they come out of school and you're so focused on grades and grades and grades, especially nowadays with how hard it is to get into grad school, um, that it's really unlearning that like you, you have to fail to grow.
So there's a lot that goes into, and it's, there's a lot of psychology too. Um, but yeah. That rapport and that relationship is what makes a great clinical fellowship year for that student.
[00:12:56] Amy Wonkka: Well, and ideally, we're all learning skills that we, [00:13:00] you know, you, you mentioned earlier, I don't know all the things.
I'm not the perfect clinician. That's because we're all human people. Nobody knows all the things, is the perfect person. Um, so there, we are human people. We all make mistakes that doesn't change, you know, with the, being in the field for an extended period of time, doesn't like protect you from ever making a mistake again.
So some of those self-reflection strategies and learning from other people, that's, that's not a one and done either. So, so I'm excited to have this conversation with you and learn more about, you know, kind of what this process looks like, because I'd imagine it's also teaching some of that too. You know, I've been Kate, Kate, and I started this in part because we were always asking each other questions and trying to learn from one another
[00:13:47] Kate Grandbois: And Amy was my mentor. So if I don't know the answer and she doesn't know the answer, then the answer is not there. That mentor relationship that's sort of, you know, and now we're peers. I think we're peers, Amy. I think we're [00:14:00] peers.
Amy Wonkka: We're definitely yeah.
Kate Grandbois: And, but there is that, that there's that cooperative learning experience that you can really only get from other colleagues and other people who are more experienced than you and Amy is more experienced than me in a lot of different areas.
And I might be the opposite for you, you know, but there is that peer that there is that peer learning. That's so critical.
[00:14:20] Jill D'Braunstein: Yeah, for sure. And you know, it's funny as you say that, I'm thinking to myself, you know, if you want, um, a good reflection of your own clinical skills take on a grad student or a CF because.
Um, it'll really make you do some self reflection because good question. They have great questions and they question everything because they don't know. And then you have to think, Hmm, why am I doing that? You know, um, my number one tool is always know why you're doing what you're doing. You know, that's always my feedback.
And so that comes right back to me. And if I don't know why I'm doing what I'm doing, then gosh, I need to sit down and self-reflect so it's, it's very [00:15:00] cathartic. Um, and, and it's really, but I love that process. I, I, I am not perfect and I, I love to improve myself. And I think after you've been in the business and been practicing for as long as I have, um, it it's, so it's really, really important to me to give back and to train up some really great clinicians.
And, and I, I just, I love doing it. So, um, it keeps me on my toes and I love that.
[00:15:34] Kate Grandbois: Well, I'm hoping that after listening to this other people become more interested because there's a lot of good reasons to become, um, a CF supervisor. But before we talk about, or I guess one of the fundamental pieces that you have to know is what ASHA requires.
So what does, what it, can you remind us? What is the fellowship? Um, and what is the CF and what are the ASHA requirements?
[00:15:56] Jill D'Braunstein: Yes. Yeah. [00:16:00] So, um, a full-time CF is considered 35 hours per week for 36 weeks. The CF has to gain 1,260 hour clinical hours. Um, so you can do part-time and so those, those hours change a little bit, but just so, um, you kind of, we have a, an established set, um, as a supervisor, you have to have your current C’s.
Um, they have to be current, um, and that's the, um, the clinical fellow actually is mandated to make sure that their supervisor has their Cs throughout their entire, um, clinical fellowship period. So, uh, the clinical fellow is, is asked or, or told to continually check, um, and make sure that they're up-to-date and not lapsed.
Um, you also have to have a minimum of nine months of [00:17:00] full-time clinical experience after earning your Cs. So I know Kate's making a face, like what, and I, I can read her brain and go, is that enough? Um,
[00:17:10] Kate Grandbois: That's exactly thinking. My face was aggressive, but yeah,
[00:17:14] Jill D'Braunstein: it was, it was, but that's my reaction as well. I don't feel, this is my own personal opinion.
I don't feel like after nine months of after you've earned your Cs, nine months later, you're ready to take on a clinical fellow. Um, but that's ASHA's minimum requirement. Um, and then in addition, you also have to have completed a minimum of two hours of professional development in the area of supervision that's above and beyond your regular ASHA hours.
Amy Wonkka: And this is a newer thing, right?
Jill D'Braunstein: This is. Yes. Oh gosh, I should've looked that up. What year does that go into play?
Amy Wonkka: Yeah, it's not a quiz.
Kate Grandbois: I just feel like my head.
Jill D'Braunstein: Yes, [00:18:00] it is. It is new. I'd say, you know, that COVID year has been elapsed, but, um, of, of years it's within the last five years, for sure. That's a new requirement.
And I think a really important one because you have to learn how to supervise. Um, it it's, it's, it's again, it's part of the art, um, of it. Um, another requirement is that you cannot be related in any way to your clinical fellow. So, um, that can’t. That can't happen. Um, you have to have, um, the supervision and I know you're gonna roll your eyes about this too, is a minimum of six hours onsite and in-person direct supervision first and six hours of indirect supervision during each third of the clinical experience.
So, um,
[00:18:55] Kate Grandbois: that’s only three months that's only six hours in a three-month period. I'm [00:19:00] really impressed with that math.
[00:19:01] Jill D'Braunstein:Yeah, that's correct. That's correct.
[00:19:04] Kate Grandbois: She went wrong. What do you mean 12?
[00:19:07] Amy Wonkka: Cause it's six direct and six indirect. Correct?
[00:19:11] Kate Grandbois: So it's okay. So it's 12 every three months. Yes, but only six
[00:19:16] Jill D'Braunstein: Yes, but only six direct, which feels small
[00:19:17] Kate Grandbois: it does feel small.
[00:19:21] Jill D'Braunstein: It is. They need more than that. They need more than that. And that's not even taking into account, which is a whole other topic, the graduates that have experienced the COVID fellowship year or the yeah. The COVID year, um, where they got a whole lot of simu case and not a lot of hands-on. So yes. So now you're looking at, it, it really, it really is. And you end up spending more time than that, for sure.
[00:19:53] Kate Grandbois: I have,I have two related follow-up questions. So ASHAsays that the minimum is nine months of [00:20:00] experience with your C's before you can supervise someone else in your experience. Having, having been a supervisor for a long time and having this as a passion area of interest, what would be your recommendation?
I mean, if someone is listening and self-reflecting and thinking, this is something, a skill set I'd like to grow, this is an area I'd like to explore. What are the self-reflection questions that someone could say as to whether or not they are actually ready to take on?
[00:20:27] Jill D'Braunstein: You know, that's a really good question and it's probably very individual, but I really, I really feel like you need a minimum of five years personally, to really get your groove and understand you as a clinician and who you are and what your comfort zone is and what areas you're comfortable in working and what areas you're not, or you need more, um, um, education.
So I really, I really feel like [00:21:00] five that five-year mark is where you feel like, okay, I got this, I've got my stride. I, I know what I'm doing. I understand the policies and the procedures, um, let alone your clinical skills, you know, and the expectations. So. I feel like that five-year mark. And, and I was, I was actually listening to somebody else in the field and, and she also said that five-year mark and I, I don't know what it is about that five-year mark, but that is what feels right to me.
I didn't start supervising until I think I was 10 years, um, as a clinician. So
[00:21:38] Kate Grandbois: I agree. I mean, just as my personal experience, I think that, that sounds about right. I mean, five years in, you've had enough time to make a handful of mistakes and that's how that's where we all learn. I also think what's unique about our field is that our scope of practice is very, very wide.
And over time, your scope of competence. Which are two different things. If the, for those people who are listening, [00:22:00] those scope of practice and scope of competence are not the same, over time your scope of competence become clear, becomes clearer to you. So fresh out of graduate school, I may or may not have been more comfortable with someone who had a stutter or someone who, um, was had, needing, needing support with dysphasia or dysphasia.
Now, I don't even know how to say those words because my scope of competence has changed so much over time. And when you're supervising someone, you really need to have the self-reflection skills to know what you're good at and where what's in your competence and what isn't in your competence. So there's a method to the madness somewhere with that five-year rule.
I think I'm just, I'm just backing you up at that point. This, the second question that I had was related to something you said, if you, a few minutes ago, um, about how the minimum amount of supervision is really not enough and often new grads need more support. What's your experience with supporting [00:23:00] supervisors in terms of funding for that extra time?
Again, I know you're in private practice, but if someone is listening and wanting to maybe approach their administration, but is concerned that they're not going to get time allocations for supervision or allocations for mentorship to have that extra time to spend with those new grads, what are what's that landscape like?
[00:23:21] Jill D'Braunstein: You know, like you said, I'm in private practice, so I'm not quite sure, but I would imagine that. In that type of setting, it would not only I've, I've heard of people getting stipends, but also it would just be part of your workday or your, um, reduced productivity expectations or caseload expectations, because it really does.
Um, if your employer sees the value of you, of you having a clinical fellow, which can be ginormous, um, training somebody for your setting in the way that your practice or your [00:24:00] setting works. Is of tremendous value to the employer. If they see that, then I, I would, um, I would have that conversation and maybe point out those, um, that value to your employer.
Maybe they don't, you're not being employed by an SLP that has knowledge and number one, how difficult it is to find an SLP, um, and hire somebody. But then if you were able to mold them and shape them in the way that your setting, um, works and conducts, um, their practice, then that would be just a benefit for them.
So I love that. I don't know. Did that answer your question?
[00:24:43] Kate Grandbois:No it did, just, you know, we're all constantly up against the limitations of our workplace environments and funding is such a big component of that, you know, buying our time to do all these extra things. So, um, knowing how important this is and. You know, wanting, imagining that listeners are one [00:25:00] or have taken an interest in growing their leadership skills and their supervision skills.
Just thinking about all the barriers to overcoming some of those hurdles, um, which leads me to another question about the difference between supervisor a supervisor and a mentor.
[00:25:16] Jill D'Braunstein: Yeah. So that for a second,
[00:25:19] Kate Grandbois: cause this is very interesting to me.
[00:25:22] Jill D'Braunstein: Yeah. Go, Amy gave me how something.
[00:25:25] Amy Wonkka: Well, I feel like Kate and I have talked about this a lot and, and it sort of echoes the earlier comment just about some of these skills that we learned through our CF are skills that carry us through these relationships that we have with other clinicians throughout our career. Um, but you know, there's, there's definitely a difference between somebody who is your actual supervisor and an evaluative relationship by its very nature. And those folks can also be very helpful sources of information where you can go and learn new things. Um, [00:26:00] but it's, it's a different at its core. It's a fundamentally different relationship than one that you have with a mentor.
[00:26:08] Jill D'Braunstein: I agree. This is where I would think that like starting nine months after you get your seas, that person could be a mentor to a brand new grad. Who's just starting their CF. That would be a great mentorship. Like, oh, I did this or this worked for me, or she's gonna, your supervisor's gonna want this from you and mentor them that way had having had just gone through it.
I see a great mentor relationship in that respect from a fairly newer, um, clinician to a new grad. Um, and then in addition, I know that they have mentors, they come out with mentors from their, from their graduate school, you know, um, and, and see those professors as their mentors because they have that relationship [00:27:00] with them.
But yes, there's a very different. Relationship and from the supervisor, because I, as a supervisor, I do, I've got these 21 skills that I've got to look at and you've got to achieve a certain level of that in order to get your C's. And so it's really my role that I take very, very seriously. Um, so that, so that I can, at the end of your nine months, feel good and responsible that I'm putting out a clinician that is independent and can move forward with their, with their role, um, ethically and, um, comfortably, um, knowing what that is and that they've met those, those, those skills.
And so it's very different. Um, sometimes it's like you said, you have both in your supervisor can be a mentor, but not always. And a lot of that has to do with your [00:28:00] relationship with your supervisor.
[00:28:02] Kate Grandbois: I think that that's such a good point. We had published an episode way back when about all the icky feelings that come with getting critical feedback.
So the first couple of times that you're sort of told, oh, well you did this wrong, or maybe you could do this differently and how that can feel so terrible. Um, and yet it's so critical to the learning process, but if you have a good relationship with the person who's delivering that feedback, if you have a trusting relationship, if you have you feel comfortable being vulnerable with that person and admitting, oh, I did something wrong or, you know, can you help?
That is a critical piece to being able to integrate that feedback and move forward and move through it. Um, and so if you're listening and you don't have that relationship with your supervisor, maybe there are some things that you can do about it. We talked about it in a previous episode, but just know for yourself that having that good relationship is really critical.[00:29:00]
[00:29:00] Jill D'Braunstein: Yeah. And if you are a supervisor or wanting to be a supervisor, one of the great ways to do this is to, and to build a connection is owning, owning it, owning your faults and pointing them out like, oh gosh, I shouldn't have done that. Or, you know, next time, this is my key phrase. Remind me not to, you know, cause I was, oh, I gotta remember.
Hey, can you remind me not to do that again? Next time? Remind me next time I should do this. Um, cause I can be forgetful, but yeah. Being human and pointing out when you make mistakes, I think is so critical because like I said, they already come out and they're so stressed and there's such a heavy weight and they're so there's so much tied to it that, um, they forget to breathe and just be natural and recognize that this is, this is your time to, to, to flail and, and to learn and to fail and to, and to self-reflect about, [00:30:00] oh, what should I have done?
You know, previously. Um, and so as the supervisor, it's really important to share your failures as, as you go through them or your past failures and, um, making that an open conversation and making that conversation okay.
[00:30:19] Kate Grandbois: I love that. That's that's that was the, that whole thing you just had was full of little gems.
I think that was, that was really great. And it made me think about our next learning objective. So what are some of the areas that new grads tend to need more support in? I think you've just touched on one of them. There's this tremendous amount of stress and pressure to perform and to like do it well. What can you tell us about your, about that in terms of your experience?
[00:30:45] Jill D'Braunstein: Yeah, so, you know, I think, um, I think number one is they learn how in grad school, from my experience, how to, um, use therapies [00:31:00] tools to, you know, at target a certain goal, but what they don't. What they, what they need practice and what they need. The, okay. I think from the supervisor is to really focus on, do I have a connection with this, with this client and this student, do I have rapport?
Do I have their respect as a human being? Because without that, if you've been practicing, you know, you are going to get nowhere. It really, it's not fulfilling by any, on either side of the table. And so yes, the goals are important by no means. Am I ever saying, you know, don't work on the goals, but building that rapport and having that connection with your client and your student is so important.
Um, so, so don't focus so much in the beginning of, okay, I got to know all the goals and I've got to have, you know, this tool for that goal and this tool for that goal. No, you know what, build a relationship first, build that [00:32:00] connection. Um, and that’s. that’s something that, that that's not taught. You can't teach that that's that art that's the art.
Um, the second thing is time management.
Kate Grandbois: Um, can you teach me some time management?
Jill D'Braunstein: Some people still work on it after 40 years. Um, but I feel like time management and organization is the key is the key to feeling good about your, what you're doing and your clinical skills. Um, without that it just is messy.
Constantly feel like you're chasing your tail, um, constantly feel disorganized or that you forgot something or the shoe is going to fall, you know, um, or the shoe's going to drop whatever that thing is. Um, but I think that that time management and organization is something that is really key.
And one of the [00:33:00] first things that I typically will ask, um, of my CF, because I want to know is, do you feel like this is a strength of yours? Because if they feel like it's a strength, then I kind of let them run. And then I kind of see and mold and, and kind of guide them from there. But if they don't, then I'm going to automatically say, okay, here's some things that have worked for me.
Um, but I'm not going to automatically say, here's what works for me. Use this. I want to first see what their skills are and what their comfort is. What they want to use. Um, cause again, I'm not trying to make many Jill's. I want to mold them and use their, their strengths. Um, so, um, time management, building rapport.
Um, and then I think like the, the, the other thing is IEPs. Um, and teaching, if you're in that school setting IEPs and the art of the IEP, [00:34:00] um, how to read the table, how to know when to say what you want to say versus when no, not now. Um, it's an art and it's a finesse and you really grow that over time. But if you have a good, um, supervisor and or mentor that can, um, role play or role model that for you, that's going to be super helpful for your new graduate.
Um, And then also just the ins and outs of the IEP and, and paperwork. That's not something that, because it's so different everywhere you go, um, and can be very specific, um, that, that too is another thing that they always need help on.
[00:34:48] Amy Wonkka: I feel like the documentation piece overlaps with like the Venn diagram of the documentation piece and the time
management piece are also really intertwined. Um, [00:35:00] because just like you said, it's not all of the documentation components vary depending upon where you are. And even IEP is, you know, the IEPs that you guys are renting are different from the IEPs that Kate and I are writing on the east coast.
Um, and so having an understanding of procedurally what you need to do, and then I would imagine a bit of it is pairing. From the degree of documentation they were doing when they were in grad school too. Because if I, if I recollect it was a while ago, but if I recollect my documentation at grad school was like not sustainable nor necessary in real life.
Jill D'Braunstein: Yes. And that's kind of what I mean with, um, almost getting them to relax a little bit, um, and really hone in on the importance of building rapport and having a connection with your, with your student, client. What have you, rather than [00:36:00] frantically taking your data, you know, every single session and, um, And spending your time there rather than thinking about, did that work?
What could I have done differently? Did that child have a connection with that? Did that client, um, see the value in that? Um, did they see their progress? Can they feel their progress? Do you know those types of really important? Um, I feel like clinical skills that can just, you know, skyrocket your success.
If you have that connection and they feel that connection and they see their, the value of coming to see you and they know that they're making progress. Um, and that takes a little bit of teaching them to breathe and kind of sit into the seat and, um, be more comfortable with their, um, interpersonal skills.
[00:36:58] Kate Grandbois: I think managing [00:37:00] all of these things as a new graduate is incredibly difficult.
And I couldn't, I mean, I'm just remembering my own experience. Um, I'm especially thinking about recent grads or individuals who have graduated through COVID, which is a completely different, I mean, none of us know what we're doing. None of us knew what we were doing for a while. I think it's a little bit better now.
Um, but just the importance of, again, thinking about people who are listening now, who are interested in becoming supervisors, the importance of, of supervision during that period and how your ability to supervise someone well will, can make or break that experience. So if you're a new grad and you're already, you know, breathing stress trying to figure out, you know, you mentioned data collection, I'm a very seasoned clinician and I have lots of additional coursework and data collection and it's still a little, oh, well, there's a lot going on. And now I'm going to take my data. And now I'm not with the goal. I mean, [00:38:00] there's so many things happening.
So if you are in, if you're a new grad in that position, experiencing all that stress and don't have the support of a well-trained well-informed supportive supervisor with a good relationship, then holy moly. That's just adding insult to injury. I
[00:38:21] Jill D'Braunstein: agree. Yeah. So imagine it takes more than an hour a week.
If you look at that 12 hours,
[00:38:28] Amy Wonkka: just to go back to that very small
[00:38:29] Jill D'Braunstein: number, just to circle back around to that. Yes. Um, you know, I really like to give my new grads, at least two to three weeks of just shadowing looking, working right next to me. Um, and then, and watching five of my IEPs, you know, um, those types of things so that they are like, okay, that now I see what this actually looks like in this setting, because they've experienced [00:39:00] other settings, but it's different.
It's different. Each setting is different. And so to just throw them in and be like, okay, go. Um, which in a lot of ways last year we had to do, um, and you know, and there's, there's some, there's some benefits to, Hey, try it, you know, um, in that experience, you know, um, build some resiliency and a lot of other things, which are great, but yeah, it's, it's, um, it's very, it's, it's, there's a lot to teach.
There's a lot to learn.
[00:39:36] Kate Grandbois: I, I liked what you said earlier in this episode about the self-reflection that a supervisor does and how it's a learning experience. That sort of goes both ways because you're really needing to reflect on your own skills. When you answer questions, when you're teaching, I've personally had that experience teaching, um, at universities, but also teaching mentees.
I mean, I actually came to Amy recently. I said, [00:40:00] oh my gosh, somebody I'm mentoring asked me a question. I don't have the answer to you because it makes you go seek additional information and sort of reflect on your own procedures or biases that you may have had. Cause you've been working for so long. Um, I'm wondering what you would recommend for someone who is listening, who is interested in doing this, but understands that they want to do that and the importance of doing it well.
And what additional resources might exist out there for, for expanding their scope of competence in this area.
[00:40:34] Jill D'Braunstein: From a supervisor standpoint, you mean? So those additional CEU's that are mandatory, um, are where you're going to get a lot of those, that, that information on how to give feedback, what type of feedback, um, the importance of communication, um, and taking into, um, account the communication style of yourself and your, [00:41:00] um, your CF that's really important.
What kind of communication do they prefer? Um, I always like to ask in the beginning, how much supervision do you feel you're going to need the bare minimum or are you going to want more supervision? Um, I like to kind of get the temperature of what their needs are. Um, but going back to your question, um, that those, those hours, um, those additional hours are where you get that information.
Other than that, um, you know, I think personally, um, I love to read leadership books, so I love Bernay brown, anything that she reads, writes, um, you know, um, I think that, that you get a lot of self-reflection I think, to be a supervisor, you have to be open to looking at yourself and, um, looking at your style and kind of molding and shaping [00:42:00] yourself to meet the needs of your CF.
Um, so I can't be stuck in my way. I've got to be open to allow them to be themselves. And so I think any of those, um, the leadership books, um, are, are also going to be beneficial.
[00:42:20] Amy Wonkka: I think you, you just about segwayed us into our third learning objective. Um, when you talked about the needs of your CF can, can you tell us a little bit just about what is a needs based approach and how, and why would we use that for CF supervision?
[00:42:36] Jill D'Braunstein: Yeah. So a needs based approach is looking at, um, first the needs of your, your, um, clinical fellow. Um, and so I do this by using, I have kind of an interview questionnaire that I use from the, from the get-go, um, and it goes through a bunch of different areas, [00:43:00] but it looks at, um, I like to look at what their clinical experience was prior and get feedback on what they enjoyed about that and about that supervision, um, and what they valued from that and what they may have preferred to be different.
Um, I like to know what their, um, do they prefer structure or independence? Um, I like to know, um, how much experience they have actually in IEPs, some things like that. So, um, I also like to know what their, um, their capstone or their final project was, um, because that's typically gonna going to guide them or tell me, inform me about what their, um, area of interest is.
Um, so I like to start off by using this questionnaire so that I get, and a really deep interview to kind of understand their [00:44:00] needs, um, from the beginning, as well as each quarter, there's 21 key areas that used to be 18. And now, um, the, the rating form just changed in January. I think 2020, um, it's a new format.
So now it's 21 skills and you get a rating from one to three and. It's pretty, um, it's pretty broad. And of course it, it doesn't cover as well the area of the art of our field. And so, um, above and beyond that, I always, at the end of each quarter, I like for my CF to come with three personal goals for themselves.
And then I will also write down three goals that, and typically they're pro-, if I, and I feel like if you are, have really great communication with your CF, you pretty much [00:45:00] come with the goals that are very similar, um, because we've been discussing, um, and talking about some needs areas, some strength areas.
Um, so. Generally, I like to do, I like to do that each quarter. And then at the next quarter, we look back on those goals and either continue with them just like you would benchmarks or, you know, for any, any other, I mean, um, but it gives them very specific targets and areas that are needs, um, that are natural needs.
Um, but, but, and also it reassures me at the end, like, okay, you were able to meet those. And I know now how to support you in those areas of needs
[00:45:49] Kate Grandbois: I think that this is, oh, sorry, go ahead.
[00:45:50] Jill D'Braunstein: So just, I like to use a needs based approach because then I know how to support them and where to support them. And that's, [00:46:00] that's really important to me.
[00:46:04] Kate Grandbois: And so what I was going to say was, the reason I think that's what you're saying is so critical is it's making it, it's giving me a parallel to what we do as clinicians. So when we go, we were teaching communication skills, right? And we go into a session and we meet our learner where they are. We mold ourselves, we alter the environment.
We don't expect the child or the adult or our client or patient or student or whoever to just change because we say that they should change. Right. For some reason, we forget to meet other, our peers where they are. We forget that, that, that applies when you're teaching a new skill to even a colleague and especially a new grad.
So I, I love the concept of writing goals together as a collective unit, but also as the supervisor, reflecting on. Your own skills or your own thoughts to consider what we need to do as the [00:47:00] supervisor to make it a better learning environment for the supervisee. That's exactly what we would do as clinicians.
And yet, you know, I think sometimes in this supervisee supervisor relationship, and I think this is also dictated by workplace norms, there seems to be a, this is the standard. You have to do it. You have to meet us at this standard. This is what we expect. And I'm only going to give you six hours, or I'm only going to give you this number of hours.
And so there's this, I mean, again, not all supervisors are like that. It can be dictated by your workplace setting, but that's not how learning works. That's not a nurturing learning environment.
[00:47:37] Jill D'Braunstein: I agree. I agree. And I think it's really important for, um, you know, yes, we do have these 21 skills that we have to measure, but I really feel like that collaborative approach.
With the clinician with the clinical fellow, putting their 2 cents into it really gives me an awareness of, okay. They think [00:48:00] that this is an area of need. I don't see it. So obviously I need to just point out you did that. That's where you did that. That's where that was. This is, you know, here's another example.
It's just, it's really not that different. Like you were saying from our clients, they, they need feedback like, oh, that was a good one. Oh, I heard that. Yes, that was great. They need to know that they're making progress as well. And so me as a supervisor, I have to point those out. And so, um, I need to be more, provide more affirmations if, if they are coming with a goal that I'm like, you got that, you know, then I've got to reaffirm that for them so that they feel confident in that area.
So it's really insightful to have their collaboration rather than just using those 21 skills.
[00:48:51] Amy Wonkka: Well, and I feel like you, you make a great point too, that, you know, you're sort of what, what I heard you saying was that effectively you're sort of [00:49:00] coaching the newer clinician through that thought process that we all need to maintain as clinicians.
Right. We all need to continually be doing that self-reflection and just like all of the more directly connected to client skills that we see, that's sort of a more indirectly connected to client skills, right? So by having you there and doing this process together, this needs based assessment process that you've been describing to us by being there to help facilitate their thinking through that.
That's, that's gonna, that will pay off for them, you know, their entire career, because that's also going to translate to, geez, I have an opportunity to do some professional development. What am I going to pick? Where are the areas that I feel like are a need for me right now? I'm going to go and learn more about X, Y, Z.
So it's, it's not even. You know, you're doing an anchoring it to the CF process and, and, and being sure that they're able [00:50:00] to demonstrate all of these skills that they need to demonstrate for you to feel comfortable, you know, signing off on that final sign off your, your, your, your C's, you know. Um, but I think really it's, it's a broader skill that serves all of us.
Well, I think we, you know, Kate and I joke sometimes, like, if you don't and when you feel like you don't have anything else to learn, like, you know, get it, get out, it's time to retire, you know? Um, so, or Kate's more macabre, it's it's time to die. Um, but I, you know, I think that that, that process is the same and it, it, it must be really helpful to do that in conjunction with someone else who can sort of view have that dialogue a little bit more objectively.
[00:50:38] Jill D'Braunstein:
Yeah. Uh, I think, um, I think that that collaboration, like I said, is really valuable because you have to get their perspective and, um, You know, w I've looked at it through my scope for, in my lens for so long that that their's is oftentimes very different. [00:51:00] Um, and so getting their perspective on the way that they view themselves or how to use something, then it, it just supports it.
And, and really, it, it makes me more successful as a supervisor. If I understand their needs, then I can be like, okay, so, you know, the data collection format or whatever format that I had you using, isn't you, isn't, isn't working for you. Let's, let's ask somebody else. Let's find out another way. Um, so I can, like I said, mold and shape to their needs and not my own, because ultimately my job is to make them feel confident and competent and successful.
Um, and so that's my goal.
[00:51:47] Kate Grandbois: I love that. And just thinking about how, you know, the, the recipe to make that successful. You already mentioned this, but how much reinforcement and how much praise and how much affirmation [00:52:00] a new grad is going to need to feel not only competent, but confident how much you cannot feel confident in your skills if you're constantly being told all the ways in which you need to do things differently, or, or you need to learn this skill and you need that skill, you really have to have a positive learning environment to not only acquire competence, but confidence. It's like, that's, you just have to.
[00:52:27] Jill D'Braunstein: Yeah. And I think that that comes down to your supervision and your supervising, um, uh, style.
Um, I tend to like to point out positives from the get-go. I really like to affirm them straight up because they've worked so hard in grad school and then up against a bar that I want to reaffirm all and, and, and give them, um, [00:53:00] affirmations in every single positive area that I see. Whether it's the way that they, you know, moved the therapy materials or blocked something or, you know, whatever.
Um, I provide as much positive feedback in the very beginning and then kind of fade that as it's not necessary. Um, and then it's like, Hey, if I don't say anything, then you're good. By the very end. It's like, you got this. Um, I end up by the last quarter. I'm like, you got this, you got this, you got this. So I think affirmation is a big part of um, building that connection with your CF, um, they need to know what they're doing well, and you have to be very specific about what they're doing well, so that they know how to duplicate it. It's really not all that different than our clinical skills. So,
[00:53:55] Kate Grandbois: yeah, no, I agree. I'm having the same thoughts. Um, I'm also thinking about, you [00:54:00] know, the education that we get in graduate school and how hopefully over time, this will change, but we don't get, uh, uh, at least I didn't get a lot of training in leadership.
I didn't get any training in, you know, a lot of the skills I use today, like basic business understanding and parent training and counseling and all of these softer skills, all of these extraneous skills that I use to be what I hope is a three-dimensional and fully functioning, you know, experienced clinician.
Um, And the leadership component of being a supervisor is, I mean, as we've already acknowledged, it's a critical piece of creating a positive environment for your, for your supervisee. Um, it's a critical piece to, you know, contributing back to our field to make sure that we're participating in raising up the newer generation, old or young, just the newer grads who are entering our [00:55:00] field and paying it forward to make sure that our, the, for those of us who are, are already experienced clinicians passing on that knowledge, not only the science knowledge, but the art knowledge.
Um, I'm wondering, you mentioned leadership skills already. What are some of the leadership skills that you think are most relevant or most important to supervision in your experience?
[00:55:23] Jill D'Braunstein: Communication. Communication is, uh, Communication like you have to be and, and, and being approachable. Um, you've gotten, but I think you do that through your communication.
Um, so I think that, you know, your communication style and fitting that to their communication style and figuring out that, and that in the early part of your relationship is really key to the success. Because if you can have open and honest communication, [00:56:00] whether it's constructive criticism or praise or feedback or whatever, um, you're gonna, the, the fellow will be more successful in their, um, application and taking that and sitting with it and self-reflecting on it, um, then than anything else.
So I think open, um, communication and effective communication is probably the key.
[00:56:26] Kate Grandbois: I want to zoom in on one aspect of communication that you've already talked a little bit about that I, I also, in my experience have found to be incredibly helpful that we don't as a culture, I think tend to talk about as much, but that's listening.
Um, you know, you've already talked about this questionnaire, this platform of giving them an oper, giving your supervisee an opportunity to self-advocate to talk about what they need, but as a supervisor, really self-reflecting to make sure that you're listening and you're creating opportunities to listen.
And you're [00:57:00] continuing to check in, um, I think a lot of us, and maybe I'm just speaking for myself as an a, I think an experienced person with, you know, however many years under my belt. I think when I interact with someone who doesn’t necessarily know, I tend to bombard with information. I tend to be the, okay, let's do this, let's do this, let's do this, let's do this.
And I have to constantly remind myself well to shut up frankly, and, and listen and check in. Um, and I think that that's such an important piece to really do exactly what you said earlier, which is sort of mold yourself to chameleon yourself sort of around the needs of your supervisee, but you can't do that unless you continually listen to them.
[00:57:43] Jill D'Braunstein: Yeah. I agree with you. Um, and listen, in, in many different ways, listening to, um, body language, listening to, um, email, um, their way that they respond and emails, the way that [00:58:00] they, you know, not just them telling you, but also just listening to their communication with other people in different settings. Um, And being able to give them feedback on that and recognizing what that looks like for them.
Yeah. That's part of that whole needs based approach that I use is listening to their needs first and then molding myself and, and what I provide to them based on that. And then also what I see as a need.
[00:58:34] Kate Grandbois: if anybody is listening and is wanting to actively go about increasing their scope, um, you mentioned her name and it's escaping me now.
Brenee Brown. I feel like she's a famous person and I should know that. I don't know it. So I'm gonna, I'm going to model humility here and just say out loud that I don't know who she is, but are [00:59:00] there any, are there any other pieces of literature off the top of your head or any other resources for leadership skills and all those kinds of things that you would recommend?
[00:59:12] Jill D'Braunstein: off the top of my head?
[00:59:15] Kate Grandbois: I'm not meant to be a zinger question. So if you don't that's okay
[00:59:19] Jill D'Braunstein: Not off the top of my head. I could, I'm like looking at my bookshelf behind me, behind the screen, like come, come to me, but it's closed. So I can't read any of the titles. Um, no, I think, um, I think that part of leadership too, is something that you, you can, you can grow.
But I think also it's, it's part of, um, I think part of it is natural as well. Um, so I don't think everyone is cut out to be a supervisor, nor should they. Um, so I think that if you have an interest, I would highly recommend [01:00:00] that you reach out to your local, um, university and start off by mentoring a grad student.
Um, that's a great way, rather than jumping into the CF, you could do, um, you can mentor just a, a grad student and that's a great experience as well. Um, so that's a great place to start and get your information and, um, and also you can, um, The there their supervisors, their professors will give you some guidance on how to supervise and what to look for and what skills they're looking for.
So that's a lot of it as well is going back to that university. Um, and the professors there know exactly. And they'll guide you, um, to set, you know, kind of how to go about that process and what you should look for.
[01:00:51] Kate Grandbois: That's very helpful. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
[01:00:54] Amy Wonkka: I was just gonna say, we talk a lot about, you know, having a mentor.
So one other thing to think [01:01:00] about is do you know someone else who is supervising CF, who could potentially, you know, serve as a mentor for you? Um, during that, during that process,
[01:01:12] Kate Grandbois: um, in our last few minutes, do you have any parting words of wisdom for our listeners?
[01:01:15] Jill D'Braunstein: Parting words of wisdom. If you are at a point in your career where you feel comfortable, confident, and competent, I highly encourage you to give back to our professional community in some way.
Start a podcast, join a podcast, talk on a podcast, um, present, um, teach supervise. Um, if you want to keep it low key, supervising is a great way to give back, to check yourself. Um, I think we all need to check ourselves sometimes, and this is a great way to do [01:02:00] that. And so I'd highly recommend that you reach out and, um, supervise somebody and be that mentor and see if you enjoy it.
[01:02:11] Kate Grandbois: My guess is that you will, it's a really wonderful and rewarding experience. Wouldn't you say?
[01:02:17] Jill D'Braunstein: I would, for sure I've done it several times. This is something that I just have a, I have a passion for, so I love to, um, help other clinicians, um, grow in their skills. So,
[01:02:31] Kate Grandbois: well, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing all of these little gems with us.
Um, for anyone who is listening, who would like to use this episode for ASHA CEUs, you can do so, just cruise over to our website, www.slpnerdcast.com. All the resources that we mentioned throughout the episode will be listed in the show notes. They'll also be listed on our website. Thank you again, Jill so much for joining us and so much.
This was really, really great. Thanks for having [01:03:00] me anytime open-door policy. Um, so thanks again, and we hope everybody learned something today.
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